The Interview

ALS: THE INTERVIEW PRESENTS RICH MACKNEY! (PART 3 OF 3)

2009-11-11T19:32:00.000-08:00

The Power of Friendship
John & Joyce join me with Rich!
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Manning: Rich, at the end of each interview, I ask my guests if they would like to summarize their appearance by making any point they want. I know you're continuing every day to be active and not passive with the ALS. The floor is yours!

Mackney: Michael, when you first hear somebody tell you that you've been diagnosed with a terminal illness, and you ought to go home and prepare with your family to die, it's a shock to your system. You'll find that there are fighters or a run-awayer's. In my experience, if you're not going to stand and fight, you're only going to hasten your demise. I also understand that there are probably fewer fighters out there than there are people resigned to their fate. And so I think, on the one hand, I'm glad I'm like me. I want to fight. You can never do that looking the other way and beat this disease. But in addition, I want to continue sharing information with all the many people out there who are not necessarily fighting--to give them some hope, understanding that this is not standing still. It's moving---slowly---but it's moving. If the last 12 months is any indication, the next 2 or 3 years will see us moving ahead by leaps and bounds. We just need to hang in there for the ride. We do everything we can to stay hanging on.

Manning: Is there anything my readers can do to help push things forward beyond a letter to a Congressman or Representative?

Mackney: I think it's very simple. If you would be kind enough to point your readers to my BLOG, so they can stop and see the research I post there...

Manning: Yes!

Mackney: ..They will find opportunities not only for ALS, but how this technology touches so many other things. If your readers find something that is interesting to them for their family, for their loved ones, then I think it would be great if we opened up communication with their legislators and point them to the same research and ask the question: 'What are you doing to see that this comes faster in our lifetime for my loved one who has Cancer? ...or my loved one who has Parkinson's disease? ...or my loved one who has kidney failure? ...or my loved one who has a busted spinal cord?' I think that if the approach is multi-variable as that it will have a bigger impact, because then it's not one person with one disease who is screaming into the wind. It's a whole bunch of people saying this one technology--this stem cell technology is capable of fixing a whole range of diseases and illnesses. 'What are you doing, Mr. Representative to make sure that this government makes sure to bring this care to me and my family sooner than later?' I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to share my story and my thoughts with you and your readers.

Manning: Thank you, Rich.

Note from Michael: I have learned many lessons from my incredible friend Rich Mackney. Among them, I've learned to be more patient and diplomatic--which hopefully makes me a better Gentleman! But I've also experienced in Rich a Generosity and Kindness towards mankind balanced by the Mental Toughness, Courage and Dedication required to fight Lou Gehrig's Disease. I am very grateful to Rich for making this interview possible. Here is an important piece of information, as I know many of you reading this interview worldwide will want to remain in touch with Rich's progress:

Website Contact for The Rich Mackney Warriors:
http://themackneywarriors.wordpress.com
This is a GREAT way to stay in touch with Rich!

Together we can win the fight against Lou Gehrig's Disease!
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ALS: THE INTERVIEW PRESENTS RICH MACKNEY! (PART 2 OF 3)

2009-11-10T19:31:00.000-08:00

These photos remind me of the indomitable spirit of Friendship. Last month, 22 of us showed up at the Walk to Defeat ALS and we pushed Rich in his wheelchair 3 miles around Tempe, Arizona Town Lake.
In this photo, captured a couple of weeks earlier at Rich's fundraiser there were over 200 people! There was also a live rock band, dancing and celebration. There are many members of "The Mackney Warriors". I joined Bill and Wolfgang pictured here with Rich!

In this installment, I asked Rich to cover an excellent point he made with me during one of our conversations several weeks earlier. I felt it was a powerful point to be made and Rich agreed to recap for me some fascinating insights into Stem Cell Research. Let's pick up our conversation...

Manning: One of the things we talked about before that was a great point that you made was that all too often when we're talking about Cancer research, we focus on Cancer. With Parkinson's, we focus on Parkinson's and so forth. But if we were able to get representatives from every different disease that could potentially benefit from stem cell research, that might accelerate progress. Am I understanding that correctly?

Mackney: I think you're exactly right, Michael. In fact, my understanding of this technology is that once we begin to unlock the secret of how you instruct a stem cell to do a certain job, then creating a data base of instructions that cover a whole host of different problems, sicknesses and diseases will come very, very quickly. The problem we have today in the U.S. is that the FDA mandates a multi-year process of clinical trials that starts in a petri dish in a lab and that moves on to mice and rats, and that moves on to a small handful of people and then moves on to a slightly larger larger group of people. Then 5, 7, 10 years after you started, the FDA will say, 'Now you can use this therapy on the masses'. I'm saying, we have to break the stranglehold that the FDA and big Phama have on slowing down the pace of stem cell research proper and create a mechanism in this country to allow terminally ill people to stand up and sign a waiver saying, 'We understand there are no guarantees. But we are living in a very shortened time line. We're seeing so far, that this type of stem cell therapy doesn't seem to hurt you, so we're willing to take the risk that this might just slow down the progression of the disease. So, I'm willing to accept the risks, why won't you let me try?'

Manning: Sure.

Mackney: And that speaks to, unfortunately, the nature of this country to sue anybody for anything all the time because there's money to be made. We need to figure out how to stop that because it's standing in the way of helping people stay alive to live.

Manning: The plan that you and I talked about this past summer was one that I felt was very straight forward and well planned out--it was 'Let's try and slow it (ALS) down this year, stop it next year and reverse it the following year'. Is that still your plan?

Mackney: That is absolutely my plan! Based on what I just told you, I do feel that I will have to continue to look outside of this country this year to slow down the progression of my disease and look outside of the country next to stop the progression of the disease, and I'm hoping that the year after, that we have found a way to open the eyes of our legislators and control agencies in this country so that we can be applying what will be proven methods of stopping and reversing this disease.

Manning: One of the things that struck me about the point that you made in an earlier conversation we had was that if you were testifying tomorrow morning to Congress, and you asked the question: 'Would everyone in this room raise your hand if you have anyone in your family or a loved one who has a disease or an illness?' There would be a large show of hands!

Mackney: Most assuredly!

Manning: So, the question then becomes 'Why would you stand in the way of keeping this technology even one day from your loved ones?' And that's really what confounds me. It's a really frustrating process. Perhaps it's politics, perhaps it's...a number of things. But it's a very frustrating bottle neck.

Mackney: I think if you look at health care in this country today, you find that the priority is not based on curing you of your illness. The priority is on treating your symptoms. I understand that in the case of big Pharma, it would be highly desirable to treat your symptoms and keep them in check for your entire life, because that means a big tremendous windfall for them. And I don't see them trying to find a cure tomorrow, because their money stream would come to an end. When you look at how tightly related big Pharma is to representatives and to the FDA directly, I think we have a system that has existed for many decades that cannot easily be undone. So, I think we need to be able to understand that possibly it is going to take being there in the stem cell arena that is developed in the near term outside this country, and then have people like me who one day soon can show up in Washington with my own representative and say, 'Look at me. I've stopped my disease. Look at me. I've reversed my disease. Look at me. This is what I did. This is the Science that helped me. I'm one of thousands of data points that exist today. How can we fast-track this tomorrow through the FDA and bring this therapy to the millions of Americans who can take advantage of this now?'

Manning: We've seen an example of this, I think, in the U/S. Army where there was some research that found from the depths of the sea, some micro-organisms that you told me about where if someone suffered a gash--for example--and they were bleeding, they could put this paste of micro-organisms directly onto the wound and stop the bleeding. And I understand that when the Army heard about this and saw the potential for saving lives on the battlefield, it was fast-tracked through without any of these problems with the FDA. If only we could do this now!

Mackney: I think that's a good example, Michael. What it says is that if you have a very promising technology and you also have a customer who has a tremendous amount of clout of with our own government who sees we can manage this from the technology, that you'd have a fantastic one-two punch to take this and ramrod a very positive therapy through the system in a fast pace. Personally, I feel stem cell therapy is ten-times more beneficial than this (current medical) therapy, which is very good in its own right. So, we just have to find someone we can show this to who has a lot of clout with our government to go to Washington and say, 'We need this now'.

Coming Up Next: The Conclusion of Our Visit and more...

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Website Contact for Rich Mackney Warriors:
http://themackneywarriors.wordpress.com
Stay in touch with Rich!

Together we can win the fight against Lou Gehrig's Disease!

ALS: THE INTERVIEW PRESENTS RICH MACKNEY! (PART 1 OF 3)

2009-11-09T19:28:00.000-08:00

My Special Guest: Rich Mackney
Visit: http://themackneywarriors.wordpress.com

Block Party with Brittany & Sedona

These neighborhood girls unselfishly turned over money generated from candy sales originally intended to finance a Cheerleaders trip to California to Rich's Medical Fund. These girls are truly an example of what is right about our world!

From Michael: In December, 2007 I relocated to Phoenix, Arizona attracted by the warm climate and a badly needed change of scenery. I also needed to improve my health. So, by March of 2008 I began working out at a renowned Athletic Rehabilitation Center.

During my long workouts, I noticed a very tall man who made it a point to make the rounds and visit with every patient lying on a workout table, seated on a recumbent bicycle or running on a treadmill. Standing at 6 feet 4 inches in height, this cyclist and all-around athlete had a remarkable gift for putting each of us at ease while urging us to "fight on" to reach our goals. Many young athletes were facing uncertain futures and they felt tense. All of us were overcoming some obstacle of one kind or another in our physical fitness. Enter Rich Mackney. He asked excellent questions and listened carefully. He was genuinely interested in each of our life stories and over time, a core group of us came to admire, love and respect this young businessman with a wife and family. In March, 2008 Rich developed the early signs of ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis) more commonly known as Lou Gehrig's Disease. Last December, he was positively diagnosed with the disease. My friends John, Joyce, Bill and others too numerous to mention here--truly--made a transition. We were not only Rich's friends; we became Official members of "The Mackney Warriors", committed to urging Rich to "fight on" to win the war against ALS. As hard as it is to believe, 18-months have passed. Over the summer, I asked Rich at his birthday party if he would consider being a Guest on my BLOG Page feature, "The Interview". He accepted my invitation. We taped his appearance on Sunday evening. This morning, newly diagnosed patients and their families who are conducting searches on the topic of ALS, Lou Gehrig's Disease, or Rich Mackney will find this visit on the worldwide web crawler.

There is no known cause or a cure for ALS at this time. With remarkable candor and a Determination to chart his own course to slow down the disease this year, stop it in 2010 and reverse it by 2011 Rich endeavors to bring HOPE to others who are facing ALS and a host of other diseases including Cancer, Parkinson's and Multiple Sclerosis. For Rich, there are two options: run away or stay and fight to live. He chooses to fight. Our 65 minute visit went like this:

Manning: For someone, Rich, who may not be familiar with ALS, what is it?

Mackney: Michael, ALS stands for amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, more commonly known in this country as "Lou Gehrig's Disease" after the famous baseball player. It is a disease that affects the motor neurons of the brain and spinal cord and over time, it kills off the motor neurons causing a loss of muscle control in the body. ALS begins in two classic ways. It can begin in your limbs--in your arms and legs which begin to weaken, or it can start in your upper extremities where you notice your speech and breathing begin to be affected by muscle loss. ALS affects, currently, about 30,000 people in the United States. But the shocking thing is that new diagnoses' are now exceeding 5,000 new cases per year. The average ALS patient survives anywhere from 2 to 5 years after diagnosis. A smaller number of people do survive for a longer period of time ranging from 7 to 10 years and in a very rare case, you have someone notable like Dr. Stephen Hawking who's still alive today--even though he's in his late 50's and he was first stricken when he was 28 years-old. So, why it affects people differently? We don't understand yet, and that's one of the sad things about ALS. Since there are relatively few cases of it in the United States, it does not--unfortunately--get the same amount of attention in the scientific world as do other mainstream diseases, like Cancer, for example. So, the research work in ALS is still sorely lacking.

Manning: What has your approach been in your situation (after being diagnosed)? How have you responded?

Mackney: Well, first of all Michael, in my case, I have to tell you that I believe that I inherited it from my mother who also died of ALS, and her mother died of Parkinson's Disease--another motor neuron disease. In my mind there is something genetic in my family that promotes the onslaught of the disease. That being said, inherited ALS today is only found in about 20 percent of the cases., while 80 percent of the cases are what's known as sporadic. They just happen. We don't understand why. There is a growing consensus as Science begins to advance that there are a host of influences on our genetic makeup that allow certain mutations to take place over time as we age. And then, coupled with that, there is a growing body of evidence that suggests that our greater environment--that means not only the air we breathe, but the products we use in our homes, our personal care and the output of technology from microwaves to electro-magnetic pulses to other aspects of technology that we will only fully understand in terms of health impact after we've been using them for 10, or 20, or 30 years. All of that is only slowly now being unraveled. So we think, mainly, first you have these genetic mutations that makes you a candidate for this or any host of other diseases. Secondly, the greater environment we're living in--over time pushes you over the edge. Some very interesting statistics exist right now. The first is that in the field of high endurance athletes, the rate of ALS diagnosis is almost double of the normal population. In the case of American servicemen and women serving in Desert Storm, Iraq and Afghanistan, the rate is also about double of the normal population and affecting a greater percentage of younger people. So, when you combine the effects of the cases of the Army, the very serious inoculations you receive before you go overseas, and then the harsh life in hot, dusty, chemical-laden desert climate in the Middle East, we put together all the pieces that allow the body to be weakened to the point where they, in fact, find the onslaught of the diseases like ALS.

Manning: Wow! You've taken some very positive, aggressive steps in terms of your treatment. Could you tell us about what you have done?

Mackney: First and foremost, Michael, I have to say that my experience with ALS and certainly with comparing notes with other ALS patients is that when you are told by your doctor that you have ALS, there is a great tendency for the medical world to them tell you there isn't any real hope right now, so therefore, go home and prepare to die. Fortunately for me, that isn't my nature. I began to research globally what is being done along the lines of all research--meaning everything from drug therapy all to the way to the very exciting field of stem cell therapy. Now, I've found opportunities outside the United States to give experimental stem cell therapy to me whereas in the United States that is not possible without the approval of the FDA (Food and Drug Administration). And that process, unfortunately in this country, takes many, many years to happen. And it's difficult for someone who's been told who is the average ALS patient that you have a 2 to 5 year timeline and then you look at the FDA and you find that they work on a 5 to 10 year timeline and you realize you're going to be gone before they ever approve anything that might be able to help me. So, my approach was to look globally. I first went in March of this year to Germany to take advantage of some experimental stem cell therapy, which unfortunately has not been beneficial for me. On the other hand, I'll say that it also has not hurt me. And more recently, in July, I went to a facility in San Diego that has developed some new advances in stem cell therapy and operate out of a clinic in Mexico where they have Mexican government approval to go directly into human trials in cases of terminal illnesses. Again, I don't feel I've gotten any advantage from the therapy done in July. Then again, I don't think it hurt me either. I know from my research that we are making huge advances in updated stem cell research. And I see every week, a growing body of data that says more and more innovation of finding success in creating stem cells from simple things like skins cells, or fat cells, or liver cells, so that we can tale a small piece of you and now create and innovate millions and billions of stem cells of your generic makeup. The advantage in this is that we no longer have the ethical dilemma that surrounds embryonic stem cell research. Science has gotten away now from needing to use viruses to trigger the stem cells to do specific jobs. We now can achieve the same results by using a simple pair of stem cells anywhere and that's exciting. So, the near term future holds the promise of taking some simple stem cells from you, turning them into your stem cells, and giving them chemical instructions to do certain things. In my case, it would be to create new motor neurons for my brain and spinal cord where they'll re-attach to my muscles. In the case of other diseases, we're going to see that the same technology can rebuild the damaged liver, can rebuild your damaged heart, rebuild your damaged spinal cord, rebuild your damaged kidney, rebuild your damaged brain. So, the Science very shortly will be at the point where this learning will take root for humans. They're doing it in the labs today. My feeling is that if I am sitting here, certainly as a data point of one, I can say that stem cell therapy may not be the miracle cure, but it also is not injuring me further. And I, for one, would stand up and be a long-term candidate for anyone who wants to show me this new advancement called Induced Pluripotent Stem Cell--because they are inducing your stem cells to do a specific job. Then anyone tells me they're available can try it on me tomorrow, I'm going there!

Manning: Sure!

Mackney: Unfortunately, I don't see that happening tomorrow in the U.S. I see it happening in another country.

Up Next: In Part 2 of this special edition of "The Interview", Rich addresses what we must do to take on ALS and many other diseases that regenerative medicine can help with Stem Cell Therapy.

Website Contact for Rich Mackney Warriors:
http://themackneywarriors.wordpress.com
Stay in touch with Rich!

Together we can win the fight against Lou Gehrig's Disease!

THE INTERVIEW: AIRLINE CEO GORDON BETHUNE (CONCLUSION)

2009-10-25T00:00:00.000-07:00

Airbus A380: "The airplane won't sell in this country at all".

Bethune's Last Project at Boeing: The 737-800

Author's Note: This morning Gordon and I talk about the controversial Airbus A380 jet aircraft and a comment by Robert Crandall, former chief of American Airlines. Years ago, I was asked to Emcee a ceremony at a Flight Museum to present awards to Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater and then-American Airlines Chief Robert Crandall for their "contributions to commercial aviation". While I was humbled by their request, I declined. I explained in a letter to the museum officials that I liked Barry Goldwater, but my principles prevented me from showing up to hand an award to Bob Crandall. His acrimonious relationship with labor and flagrant abuse of the rules of competition in the business world just put me off. Now that's just my opinion. To be fair, Bob's innovative practice of computerized yield management with Tom Plaskett's "Super Saver" fares is laudable.

Gordon and I tackle the issue of flat-learning in this country and wind up talking about his future. Recently Gordon returned to his offices in Houston after spending so much time shuttling between Delta's Atlanta based headquarters and Northwest's former headquarters in Eagen, Minnesota. Gordon needed no prompting from me. We discussed my late friend Martin R. Shugrue, Jr. and how prophetic his views were about the Airbus A380 and so many consumer issues that nobody is addressing. We picked it up from there. Make sure your seat belts are securely fastened. And again, if bad language offends you just remember. It didn't come from me...

Bethune: Michael, you asked a question earlier about how other airlines are getting off-track. I think sometimes they measure the wrong stuff. I noticed that the (Airbus) A380 was here (in the United States on a press tour).

Manning: Well, and I told you about a 1997 conversation Marty (Shugrue) and I held where he said the only place you can fly that plane successfully is in the Asian market---and then for only a limited window--about 6 months out of the year. Unless that is, they plan on building an airport out in the ocean somewhere. Well, look! They did build an airport in the middle of the ocean---and it's sinking! (Kai Tak Airport was replaced in 1998 by Hong Kong International Chek Lap Kok). He had an uncommon foresight---with all due respect to you, Gordon!

Bethune: Marty---(shaking his head)--such a loss. I knew him and I liked Marty. We lived fairly close to each other in the same neighborhood.

Manning: It's not the same anymore without him in the industry, I'll tell ya that. But talk to me about the Airbus A380?

Bethune: Well, I asked myself. 'Who do you think decided that bigger was better?' Some engineer or some government official who wanted to crow about how their airplane was bigger than your airplane. But did they ask people who buy tickets, 'What's in it for you to wait in line with 600 people waiting to get on board? To get off with 600 people? To wait for your bag with 600 people? If you're flying internationally, will you have to wait in customs and immigration with 600 other people? How does that help you? The answer is it doesn't!

Manning: How will Flight Attendants handle 600 people who panic in an emergency?

Bethune: That's another consideration. They measured the wrong thing and got the wrong stuff. The argument is that the skies are too crowded with 757's and regional jets. So, they're trying to sell this thing by telling you when you can fly and how often. People don't want to be told when they can fly. They want frequencies that accommodate their schedules with clean, safe, comfortable planes to fly them to where they want to go when they want to go! (Leans into the table again and lowers his voice): You fill three of those son of a bitches from Los Angeles to New York on any given day and ya know what I'll do? I'll schedule (Boeing) 757's to leave at 6 AM, 8 AM , 10 AM, 12 PM, 2 PM, 4 PM, 6 PM and BAM! I'll steal the goddamn business away from you! The airplane won't sell in this country at all. None! Not one American airline has ordered it and they never will. It doesn't fit our markets! You take American wanting to be the biggest airline in the world. They buy TWA (Trans World Airlines). Remember TWA?

Manning: I interviewed Jeff Erickson (former TWA CEO) twice in downtown St. Louis. I knew that company inside-out. Hell of a success story back in 2000. That was sad.

Bethune: Yeah. How did that work out for them?

Manning: Oh, horrible. American unemployed some 20,000 people and sold off the assets, never invested in Lambert (St. Louis Lambert International Airport). In fact, I remember them closing Terminal D. All the Flight Attendants' jobs were lost. They kept around 500 pilots, if that. Parked perfectly good (Boeing) 767's in the desert because the cockpit panel switches were reversed. Sold off the brand new (Boeing) 717's and cancelled the rest of the orders as I recall. They now hold all those worldwide dormant route authorities throughout Europe and Africa and Asia and The Middle East that they'll never fly. A disaster. Stupid. That was a pre-emptive strike, assuming that the United-US Airways deal would have made it. When it didn't, they looked like the dumbest guys on earth. But they wanted to be the biggest...

Bethune: And Michael, nobody gives a shit whether you're the biggest airline in the world. You either make money or you don't. You never saw Herb Kelleher (former Chairman and CEO of Southwest Airlines) worrying about being the biggest airline n the world. Flying to all 50 states---that was United's big claim. I think they went to North Dakota just so they could say that. How good is that for you? I think when Continental put in a flight from Newark to Hong Kong, United put in a flight from JFK to Hong Kong so it could be longer than our flight---58 miles or so. But they didn't have the (Boeing) 777. They had to use the (Boeing) 747 and they could only carry like 60 people on it because of payload restrictions, where we had an unrestricted payload because we had the right equipment on the proper routing. So, wanting to be the longest flight? How did measuring success like that work out for you? I noticed they went bankrupt. Maybe because of too much of that type of thinking. I think that most failures, and I mean the mediocrity you see, is people measuring the wrong stuff. I got a bigger airplane than you got! That's god, that's really smart.

Manning: I want to run a comment past you from former American Airlines CEO Bob Crandall. He stated that airlines that cut fares below cost while they are under Chapter 11 bankruptcy harm the healthier carriers and ought to be shut down. How do you respond?

Bethune: Bob would be right if that were true. And I like Bob Crandall a lot. What I saw in the United, Northwest and Delta bankruptcies is that the creditors' committees put a lot of pressure on the testosterone management to knock that behavior off. They want to see profitability restored. So, you saw a huge reduction in the available seat miles; Cincinnati (a Delta hub) got pulled back. I did see them lowering costs pretty dramatically through renegotiation's of airplane leases and labor rates so they could make a profit at a lower fare. And that put pressure on the guys with higher costs. But that's the name of the game. I've often thought had I the opportunity that Southwest had, where they were smart enough to buy fuel hedges, that I would have taken the benefit and priced my product as if I was paying 70 dollars a barrel like everyone else at that time. I would have taken the profits and put it in the bank. They didn't; they priced so that they could still make some money but Delta, United and Northwest couldn't. I think that helped drive those three into bankruptcy, whereupon they used that process to get rid of their pension costs. cut costs in airplanes, cut some labor. You have to come back out now with a much lower cost basis than you have at Southwest. Southwest hedges are expiring, so now they're going to have to price to the same oil that everyone else does. But these guys are much leaner and tougher competitors. And at Southwest, the costs have gone up. I'm sure it's a tactic. But I do know that the bankruptcy process did allow those three carriers to dramatically reshape themselves and to cut a lot of crap that had built up over 60 years. And they're very, very competitive as is US Airways.

Manning: But do you think Chapter 11 is a band-aid or a long-term fix?

Bethune: We suffer from flat learning in this country. We learn the same shit over and over again. I already hear labor leaders crying out, 'Let's go back to the old ways and let's get that again'. MIchael, do you know that a walrus isn't born fat and ugly---they become that way? So, if you want a date, you gotta kinda slim down and keep yourself in shape. And you know, there's going to be a Jet Green, a Jet Yellow, a Jet Red ---I mean it's never gonna stop! So if you get fat and ugly again, some one's just going to take it away from you---just like they have taken it. Who are the big losers? The employees lost the most with the pensions and incomes. Well, don't let that happen to you again! The guy that overeats is the one that dies. Where there's a management that says, 'Fine. We have to sign this contract, that we know that if we do will put us at a very non-competitive situation and will ultimately kill us'. Don't sign it! 'If we don't sign it they're going to strike and take the company out'. Well, take it! Shit, you're going to go broke anyway! It might as well be them that causes it and not you. How do you pull a band-aid off? If you do it fast, do it quick. One hair at a time or get that goddamn thing off---it's got to come off! Get it over with. United, Delta, Northwest and others were a victim of compromise---another layer of fat, another deal they shouldn't have signed, another concession. Take your medicine now. Don't let that build up, because you're gonna die.

Manning: We gotta wrap this up. What are you most proud of?

Bethune: (hesitates to think) I'm proud of my limited role at Boeing, my personal contribution is the Next-Generation 737 (-800). Ron Woodard had really set the airplane off. I took over from Ron and the service ceiling on the three-seven was 37,000 feet. The airplanes I flew, the 757/767 (the cockpits are similar, so a rating on one gives you a rating on both) were 41,000 feet airplanes. We came out with the 737-700, the one that we sold to Southwest. Phil Condit---president at the time---told me that he wanted an 800 model, a longer one which would have the seats of a (Boeing) 727. And he wanted that airplane to fly from New York to Los Angeles; and he anted it to carry 150 people. Because the fuse-bonding with the wings was going to be the same, we had to get more fuel so we put in a bigger center wing tank. We made that standard, so we redesigned the center wing tank to make it bigger wit more fuel volume--no box tank--just a standard tank. I said, 'I want to take the airplane to 41,000 feet'. And I met a lot of resistance from engineering over the additional cots and time to strengthen the skin, because the thickness of the empennage and other parts of the pressurized body had to be changed because of the higher altitude. 'You guys get paid by the month. Just do it! Okay? But I want this airplane at four-one-zero'. Well, I was the general manager and everybody looked at me and said, 'OK'. Today, the 737-800 flies Newark to L.A. nonstop with 157 people at 41,000 feet. It's like a dog mark on a fire hydrant. The 737-800 that goes to 41,000 feet is my little posterity. And then Continental---obviously---I've been tremendously proud of the job that Larry (Kellner, Chairman & CEO) and Jeff (Smisek, president) have done. It wasn't just fixed up and burnished to look good. It's a structurally sound, good company, good product, good people, and I'm proud of that.

Manning: And your future?

Bethune: I just pick up the phone and say 'Hello'? I've got plenty of irons in the fire. But I want to do the things I really want to do. And that's kinda nice.

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THE INTERVIEW: AIRLINE CEO GORDON BETHUNE (PART 2 OF 3)

2009-10-24T00:00:00.000-07:00

A reason for smiles...
(this guy's a "Character"...to put it mildly!)

Manning: What is your view on reforming the Chapter 11 process for airlines?

Bethune: Continental wouldn't be here today if it weren't for Chapter 11. Its a second chance. If done wisely you can come out and be at the top of the industry again, from the worst to the first. But you have to fix the company. The courts have an obligation to look at every one's rights, not just yours, because you're not paying bills. Who gets paid and how is contentious! It's like fighting over a carcass. I wish it were simple. The guys who run companies into bankruptcy wish everybody would go away and leave them alone. So, some body's put the thing in the tank and now every body's paying the price. My advice to others? 'Don't screw it up'.

Manning: Frank Lorenzo was a tough guy to follow at Continental. (Editor's Note: Lorenzo was born in Queens, New York along side the runways of LaGuardia Airport. He is the son of a Spanish immigrant family who operated a beauty salon. He put himself through Columbia driving a Coca-Cola truck. Barbara Walters once called him "The most hated man in America". Pilots refused to take off if Lorenzo was on board a Continental flight. It became so bad, that he wouldn't drink from an open soft drink can if a flight attendant handed it to him.

Bethune: (arches his eyebrow and leans into the boardroom table) Do you know that Frank Lorenzo and Texas Air (parent of Continental) had the cheapest fares---tore up all the labor contracts, tore up all the airplane contracts, had the lowest cost product in the industry---absolutely the lowest? What happened? They went bankrupt again in 1990. It ain't all about the low cost. Let's say that you would reduce the cost of pizza by doing something smart like taking the cheese off? How many pizzas are you going to sell? Can you make a pizza so cheap that nobody will eat it? Can you make an airline so cheap nobody will fly it? We did it. Still went bankrupt!

Manning: Tough lesson, and almost a third time.

Bethune: That's right! Came out in 1993 and almost went bankrupt again in 1995. Why is that? Lowest costs but still a shitty company, still a shitty product, crummy morale. That's not the kind of airline you want to fly. So we asked creditors, 'How can we help you place an airplane that we can't afford to pay for?' We put the Airbus A300 in places like India. We sent crews to train Indian pilots so that the lessors could have some cash instead of us just stiffing them. We worked with General Electric and Boeing on pushing orders back and getting some of our cash deposits back. We did a lot of things to facilitate our liquidity and to honor our obligations to the extent that we could. All of those companies still want to do business with Continental. We at the same time needed to be on-time because we needed a good product. And we needed to treat our people well. But the marketplace will decide what good is.

Manning: I went back and looked at some film of your testimony in 2001 before a Senate subcommittee. And you said that you were opposed to the proposed mega-mergers such as American with TWA and United and US Airways. What are your views on airline consolidation today?

Bethune: Look, that was pre-9/11. A United and US Airways merger clearly was not good for Continental. And my job was to represent Continentals employees and shareholders. Our intention, when we put a bid in for TWA and opposed the American deal, was not to allow a takeover without taking over TWA's pensions. They reluctantly agreed to accept the pension costs. We wanted to load up American with as much debt as we could because usually what's good for American is bad for Continental. A lot of our business is to stop your competitor from getting a good deal-to stop your competitor from getting too big or gaining an advantage. If he's buying something, make sure he pays too much. It's a tough business and if it's good for Continental, I'll be for it. If it's bad for Continental, I'll be against it.

Manning: Are there any potential mergers you see that make good economic sense?

Bethune: United and Continental makes a lot of sense! American-Northwest makes a lot of sense. I thought US Air and Delta might make some sense.

Manning: You did? I can't believe that. I thought you were against it. It made sense?

Bethune: Absolutely! I didn't say it didn't make sense. My job was to handicap the probability of success versus the handicap of Delta's stand-alone success and give advice. We don't need 15 to 20 air carriers. Do we always add airlines Michael, and never get rid of any? Do we not consolidate? Why wouldn't the big boys try and get some scales of economies to fight the ever-encroaching low-cost carriers? Five or eight years ago, low-cost carriers were 10% of the market. Now they're 35%. It's changed the competitive landscape.

Manning: Alright, former US Airways Group CEO David Siegel says that he sees a shakeout where we'll end up with three "Legacy Carriers" and probably three low-cost, low-fare carriers.

Bethune: Well, David's logical. But what's ever happened in our industry that's been logical in the last ten or fifteen years? What keeps it from happening? What's in it for an airline CEO to make an acquisition of another airline? He's not going to get a raise. He's going to get all this trouble, all this heartburn, all these integration problems. The guy who gets acquired---if he agrees to step aside---gets his severance, gets his options cashed out at the acquisition price, gets his shit load of money and goes home. The guy who's want to make the purchase would want to do it because it would be good for the company. But personally, he wouldn't want to do it, because he could be a failure. And why not play it safe and get a check and go give a speech in Hong Kong and ride in limos? There's only the fear of failure. Now if they're forced to do something---like the competitive landscape's changing and they're going to die---they will do the things they need to do because there's something in it for them. That's called security and tenure. They're not many guys that will do what's in the company's or the employee's best interest over their own.

Manning: Okay, what is your view of a coherent aviation policy for the 21st Century?

Bethune: I don't look to Congress to do anything but get re-elected, and whatever that takes they'll do that. We suffer in this country from a sense of entitlement, that we're still a regulated industry and you have the right to a night in the Four Seasons (luxury hotel) if we cancel you hundred-dollar ticket to someplace because of a rainstorm or something. Of course, somebody ought to do something if we're stuck on the runway and can't get off, or we may have some damages. Congress and others have a knee-jerk reaction to whatever it is--peanut free zones in the airplane, double the number of crews because you're over the 16 hours without any scientific basis for those kind of regulations. We're the most 'regulated-deregulated' industry that I've ever seen! We're run like a public utility. It's difficult to work in that environment. If Congress would take the word 'airline' out of their vocabulary, we would be better off. Congress is not here to help you, they're here to meddle and make life much more difficult for you---and they have! And they haven't helped the consumer. In pre-9/11, they talked about customer satisfaction and a customer bill of rights---most of those issues were because the Air Traffic Control system didn't work in this country with the volumes we had. When they said that there were too many flights scheduled into the New York area, the flights were full of people. How could there be too many flights if they were full? Who do we tell can't go to New York today? Who gets to decide? Airlines are in the business of taking people where they want to go. I think we need an ATC system that's user-based, fee-based, stand-alone outside of the budget process. Borrow money and make the investment they need to make in the technology to optimize the ATC system so that the people who want to go there can get there. They need to accommodate what the public wants, not decide you can't do it.

We don't need a law that it's against the law to lose your bag! In other words if we lose a bag, it takes 25 to 50 bucks depending on where we have to deliver that bag to you the next day. We didn't make that much on the ticket. We're already motivated not to lose the bag! Making it against the law and fining someone to lose your bag is like whipping the horse when he's running flat-out! That's Congress's way of addressing the issue. They (the government) actually came to Bush (Intercontinental) Airport and counted the number of people in line and said we had too many people in line. And I asked, 'How long were the people in line?' He said, 'We didn't notice that'. There were a lot of people in line, but the lines moved very fast. I was only there for three minutes. So, what difference does it make how long the line is versus how long you had to stand in line? I said, 'Did you ever try to get a passport? How long is that line? Ever try to visit the Statue of Liberty? You're a line-measurer; we're in the customer satisfaction business. If you leave people in line, they just go someplace else! The government ought to stay out of it! They're the worst at customer satisfaction.

TOMORROW: GORDON TAKES AIM AT THE AIRBUS A380

& WE LOOK AT HIS FUTURE TO CLOSE OUT OUR VISIT!

THE INTERVIEW: AIRLINE CEO GORDON BETHUNE (PART 1 OF 3)

2009-10-23T00:00:00.000-07:00

This interview took place prior to Delta Air Line's acquisition of
Northwest Airlines, Inc., which is now a Delta subsidiary. I have been
asked to reprint it for industry professionals and the flying public.
-MIchael Manning

Gordon Bethune is a character. His New York Times best-selling book "From Worst to First" is a bare knuckled explanation of how he took over Continental Airlines--then an absolute financial basket case after the tenure of the notorious corporate raider Frank Lorenzo who relentlessly focused on cost-cutting and acquisitions. With a lot of boldness and risk-taking, Bethune pulled off a stunning turnaround of Continental from a "Legacy Carrier" that employees hated to work at as much as passengers hated flying to becoming the best in the industry.

From the son of a crop duster pilot father to Navy mechanic to holding senior management positions at Western Airlines (folded into Delta Air Lines in 1987) and the now defunct Braniff International (widely regarded as the first casualty of Airline Deregulation) Bethune became vice president and general manager of The Boeing Commercial Airplane Group's Renton Division where he was responsible for the 737 and 757 programs. A commercial-rated pilot and an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) mechanic he is type rated on the 757 and the Douglas DC-3.

I met with him on the 44th Floor of Continental Airline's world headquarters in downtown Houston. The Continental Airlines that Bethune inherited was an amalgamation of Frank Lorenzo's mercurial management style that witnessed no less than nine presidents in as many years. Continental was the first airline subjected to a hostile takeover by a then 32 year old Lorenzo, a graduate of Columbia and later a Harvard MBA. It was Lorenzo whose ruthless get-tough tactics with labor forced the most visible and widely felt strike in American labor history at Eastern Airlines. It also led to Lorenzo being declared incompetent (by The United States Bankruptcy Court in The Southern District of New York) to reorganize Eastern's estate. Eastern was shut down on January 19, 1991. To distance itself from the embarrassment of losing control of an airline it legally still owned to a court appointed Trustee, Texas Air Corporation (TAC) was quickly renamed Continental Airline Holdings. The airline is an amalgamation of the following mergers: Texas International, New York Air, Frontier Airlines, People Express, Eastern Airlines, and commuter airlines including Britt Airways, Provincetown-Boston Airways and Bar Harbor Airways. In 1990, Lorenzo who briefly owned the largest airline empire in the world, was forced to step down from the business for good. After two more CEO's came and went, Continental found itself in Chapter 11 a second time. Bethune gambled, leaving behind a stable position at Boeing to rescue Continental--a risky proposition. But the turnaround was remarkable and today, among the "Legacy Carriers" Continental is regarded as a Class Act. He served as Chairman and CEO.

Last October 30, 2008 one of the oldest names in commercial aviation ceased to exist: Northwest Airlines. Northwest (itself an amalgamation of Southern, Republic, North Central and Hughes Airwest) merged with Delta Air Lines as the surviving entity. I sat down with Bethune just weeks after he was hired by Delta as a "Consultant" to advise their board on the proposed merger between Phoenix, Arizona-based US Airways and Delta. Bethune was re-hired as a Consultant when Delta courted Northwest Airlines (formerly Northwest Orient). His answers were quite revealing.

Manning: You recently evaluated the $10.2 billion offer from Doug Parker over at US Airways to take over Delta Air Lines. Give us your impressions of Delta's circumstances and what was ailing that carrier?

Bethune: Delta had the best balance sheet in the industry. No one had a healthier balance sheet with regard to cash position, debt-to-equity; all the things that you would want. The erosion of Delta occurred over a ten to twelve-year period when it was mismanaged. The board and management were incompetent as evidenced by their slide into Chapter 11. Chapter 11 won't fix your company. It'll fix your balance sheet and restructures things. But if you go into bankruptcy a crummy company and your don't change--you come out a crummy company. Just like Continental did in 1983 and went back into bankruptcy in 1990 because it didn't change. Delta needs to change. Otherwise I don't think it has a future.

Manning: Many of us have questioned how Delta can survive in the long-term as an independent carrier after eliminating 15% of its domestic route network in favor of international routes. What would you have done differently?

Bethune: I would have started years ago. Maybe I wouldn't wait until you were in bankruptcy to address the fact that you're failing. Delta needs to find its niche. It has a very good hub operation in Atlanta; I think Cincinnati is a very secondary hub, as is Salt Lake City. And it needs to diversify its sources of income. Just as in your investment portfolio you wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. Nor would you put all of your money in the domestic market. So, you'd use some of the international routes to hedge the economy domestically so when it goes into the tank, you don't go into the tank! Management at Delta is dong something that should have been done years ago. Delta needs to make a dent in the New York market; Los Angeles seems like a smart move and should be exploited.

Manning: There are rumors that you will be asked to take the helm at Delta.

Bethune: (starts laughing) I wouldn't do it! First of all, I'm a Continental guy. All my friends are here in Houston. (Gerald) Grinstein made---I think---$350,000 last year. Now, why would you want to work for that kind of money, and take all the heartburn, crap and negative publicity, and the hard work? I think the people who now run the place Michael, kinda like running it want to keep on running it. I'm not sure that companies always do what's best for the company. They do what's best for the incumbents inside the company.

Manning: Many predicted that Delta would spin-off Comair as it did with ASA (Atlantic Southeast Airways).

Bethune: As you saw with ExpressJet (Continental Express) we divested ourselves 100%. You don't need to own your regional feed carriers. When you do own them, often they use your pay and benefits to leverage themselves. Combining seniority lists from regional pilots to the mainline was always on the table at Continental while I was there. They (the unions) wanted to ave (pilots) progress through the ranks. That's an extension of Continentals costs. Regional and mainline are two very different markets and they have very different costs and pay structures. If you get yourself burdened with mainline pay structures at a regional carrier, you're certainly at a disadvantage. We spun them off because we needed the money. We didn't want to be that leveraged in paying more than we had to pay for regional services. As an independent company, they had to compete with other independent companies and can't leverage us because we have alternatives that if they won't give us services for a price we're willing to pay, we'll get it from someone else. When you own them, you don't have to pay that leverage---they have it on you. I saw Delta buy Comair just at the time we're selling (Continental) Express. I said, 'How dumb can you be? You're going the wrong way!' It's almost like a tape worm.

Manning: A tape worm?

Bethune: A tape worm. It goes where you go, it eats what you eat, dies when you die. How do you extricate yourself? You need an independent source of regional services to supply you, and you don't need to own it. It's against your best interests.

Manning: Okay, so where are the 'Legacy Carriers' (American, Delta, United, Continental, Northwest and US Airways) running amok?

Bethune: I think they do things that are more window dressing than they are fundamental. Airlines ought to be really good at something. Take American, Delta, United or Northwest. What one thing would one of those airlines excel at? I can't tell you. They all seem kind of mediocre to me. Continental decided to be the best at reliability, and customer satisfaction is measured by reliability. Getting there on time safely would be something we could excel at---and we did. That rove the J.D. Powers Awards. That drove a lot of revenue. It also reduces expenses because yo don't have overtime, you don't have disruptive operations. Continental became known as the most consistent product. Be good at something! Don't just be mediocre.

Manning: There doesn't seem to be any real marketing differentiation between those four airlines?

Bethune: They're not innovative people! I think for the large part most people who can't cut it in the pharmaceutical industry come to our business because it's easier to compete because the lower level of intelligence and the expertise is kinda low. That's the only reason I was able to do something. The competition wasn't that rough. Otherwise I'd have been a failure.

We resume tomorrow!

DIPG: THE INTERVIEW PRESENTS BRIAN & JANELLE JONES ([PART 4 OF 4)

2009-09-26T08:59:00.000-07:00

Brian & Janelle Jones

Natalie Rose Jones
-

Brian: Janelle and I went to a workshop two weeks after Natalie passed away. We had a funeral in Montana and a memorial service in Minneapolis. We went to church two weeks later and his topic was "Our Callings". We listened to his sermon and we thought it was really good and so we stayed for his workshop afterward and one of the things we did during Question and Answer time, we had tablets and pencils and one of the questions was 'What if you had 6 months to live? What would you do?' And man alive, you could hear the pencils on the paper! You could hear the scribble, scribble, scribble, and the pages turning. Erase and scribble, scribble, scribble and I'm sitting there and I'm not writing anything. And Janelle's sitting there next to me and she says' 'What did you write?' and I showed her and I said 'What did you write?' and she showed me nothing.

Manning: Ha! Isn't that something!

Brian: When you've lived what he said. When you've lived what his question was, there is no answer. And when you walk the life that is taught by religions to live your life in a God-Like manner like Him, is what all religions talk about...when you walk that, there is no nothing to say. When you are that close to the one you call Creator, you cannot write anything down. That's the life that we've lived since Natalie was diagnosed.

Janelle: Well, you've heard that 'Living your life as a prayer'. We all profess to make that effort to live our life as a prayer. You know what? For that five-and-a-half months we lived that. We lived out life as a prayer. We'd get up in the morning and we'd pray and we'd pray before meals and to know you're in the presence of someone who may not be physically present with you the next day, so you take that very moment and have so much gratitude for that moment. No matter what it looks like.Because if we could take that and feel that in our bodies, we wouldn't hurt each other. We wouldn't treat each other badly. We did that for five-and-a-half-months.

Manning: It would change the world, wouldn't it?

Janelle: It would change the world.

Brian: It changed our world forever, and the world of our children, and the world of our family. The people who came into that house. We had a room set up that used to be a TV Room, a dining room, it was a foyer. And people would come to that table and just pray. I mean they would just take off their shoes and sit there and pray. We had the upstairs living room, and I mean there wasn't a TV in there or anything and that became Natalie's' room. If she was in her chair that was fine, but at night, we'd bring up the mat and lay there on the floor, and Janelle and I would lay down on each side of her. She was never in a room by herself...ever!

Manning: How loving!

Brian: You know what? She never was to begin with. We would always read to her. So when she would go to bed, Mom and Dad would spend that 20 or 30 minutes of special time. There was no go into the room and shut the door and go to sleep. This is the way it was.

Manning: Totally transparent and real.

Brian: Today we can go to the grocery store and we see kids...they don't even look anything like Natalie. We see the beauty of this child who is alive. And then we see sad things in the store too. Sometimes we'd like to take that parent aside and say, 'You know what? No.You don't realize how lucky you are'. And I do think we have a message and a story to tell.

Janelle: That attitude of alertness in A-A about having an attitude of gratitude. I never really saw her a victim. This was a process she went through. And I still get angry. I get angry at the suffering sometimes. But I'm also amazed at her ability to go through what she did with the grace that she did.

Brian: Oh, yeah. I mean. Looking back on her schedule. I mean, I had radiation before with my testicular cancer. I went through it, but not like that. I mean, I had that in a different region in my body. But I know the taste in my mouth, and I had some of the complications,I know. But not the way Natalie did. And all these kids die the same way. Their breathing and their heart rate get out of whack like they're running a race and their system just shuts down and they go to sleep. Some of them are more painful than others. We were blessed. She was blessed. Her doctors said, 'When we get sick, can we come over your house and have you guys take care of us?' And we said 'Sure'. And I really, truly believe that. They know the love that Natalie truly received. The sad part of it is, we talked with them that if another parent comes in and their child is diagnosed with this, you can call us and we'll call them, or talk with them and we'll introduce ourselves. And they thought: 'What a gift! What a gift!' And then it went from 'What a gift!' ...that was their heart opening up...and then society closed it back up and then they said, 'You know. Other parents aren't going to want to talk to parents that have lost a child'.

Manning: Who decided that?

Brian: Probably some statistician. They had their hearts wide-open because of the compassion and the love that we have. But then everything that we see, and our system callouses people, their emotions and everything. That, 'Okay I've got this great family that I can call...Brian and Janelle--Natalie's Mom and Dad and they can come down here and we would just have to say, 'Is there anything we can do to help?' Whether it's two weeks later and they take our card and just call us and say, 'Hey, you went through this'. It's just that parents don't want to talk to another parent who lost a child. This is a different group...250 children throughout the world and there is no research. We offered Natalie's' brain stem and it's just hit and miss. Sometimes there is and sometimes there's not. And everybody wants to raise money for research. No. Our doctors have already been told and people that we've worked with that 'No. We're not donating money to research. We're not doing fund raising for research. We will do fundraisers and we will do our work with our foundation for families, so the father doesn't have to go to work or the mother doesn't have to go to work, offer scholarships whether it's house payments or car payments or whatever because the truth is,' Yeah, we do know'. We do know from our experience that the life expectancy is this long. And I want that life expectancy with these parents and these parents to be without a little bit of stressed to be one-hundred-percent focused on this child. I mean, Make-A-Wish is great. They send you to wherever and they get the gifts and stuff. We want something different.

Janelle: How about if we paid the electric bill for six months so their stress is alleviated?

Brian: If that means going and talking to an employer and saying, 'Hey, John here. I know you know about his child and all being sick'. I mean I was blessed. I was given a lesson, because my company was an employee owned company and they just donated vacation time. So that from the time Natalie was diagnosed until after she died I never went back to work. I wasn't making the money I was making when I was working. But I knew that there would be a check there waiting every week. Then when that ran out, when their vacation time that they donated ran out, they did some other things so it was...

Manning: ...How wonderful!

Brian: ...Yes. And I mean, when they had a fundraiser, we would be there. They were very supportive. And it showed me because I've read on other blogs and other Caringbridge sites that there are families that aren't this way. That they've got to go back to work, they've got to work or they will lose their insurance. We would be willing to go talk with this employer. Because some thing's got to change and Natalie showed us this by giving and then by becoming a taker and we are family. Any family whose child is diagnosed with DIPG, we become bonded through the universe as a tight-knit family. And that's a fact. Just like when I came to Arizona and met the four children that I met, Gunner, Megan, Hailey and Caitlin...they all knew who I was. There was that connection. And the world would be a better place if we listened to our children because they have all the answers.

Janelle: And to listen to our hearts.

Brian: And listen to our hearts.

####

Note from Michael Manning: This interview was planned well over one-year in advance. I cannot emphasize the tremendous amount of thought that The Jones' and I put into this visit. Their love for one another is strong and their message is one of Hope. There was a lot of deep Love and sharing here through both laughter and tears. I am exceedingly Grateful to Brian and Janelle for the Gift of their time with me. Through my BLOG feature, "The Interview," we are posted now on the worldwide web, and this visit of record is made available on the crawler so that parents of children with DIPG who are seeking more information have another means through which they can reach out for help as they begin "putting one foot in front of the other" to begin the difficult task of building a bridge from yesterday to the present.

My heartfelt thanks also goes out to all of you who visited us along this 4-part interview during National Childhood Cancer Awareness Month!
With Love,
Michael

DIPG: THE INTERVIEW PRESENTS BRIAN & JANELLE JONES (PART 3 OF 4)

2009-09-25T08:58:00.000-07:00

Brian with daughter Natalie Rose Jones

Good Morning! How do I begin to say this? I'll just dive right in. We learn today so much more about Natalie Rose Jones and it is absolutely endearing and hopeful. I also asked a lot of Brian and Janelle. But they are brother and sister to me, and we have a trust in our friendship where I feel that I can do that, and do so with the utmost sensitivity and honor and respect. So, with this in mind, I asked The Jones' to reach out and speak directly to parents who have a newly diagnosed child with DIPG, to parents who have suffered the loss of their child to DIPG and to friends, caregivers and people in the community at large who may not know what to say. Brian was chuckling at how I would get around to transcribing this portion of our visit and joked as he pointed to my tape recorder, he said, 'That'll be your own insanity as you figure that one out!' Brian and Janelle have a beautiful sense of humor. But actually, It was a labor of love for me to transcribe this visit Brian resumes now with some reflections of Natalie Rose.

Brian: When you get your school list of what you need for the start of the year, she would always want us to buy extra. This was after Kindergarten. And after Kindergarten, we'd always buy more pencils and more markers because she always knew there were kids that didn't have those things. There was always somebody in class. She paid attention to what was going on, and in her world around her. And that was her world! The world you live in, is the world we need to be concerned about. And if everybody did that, the world would be a better place to live in!

Manning: I agree!

Brian: And that was her motto: 'If we could all work together, the world would be a better place.' We were in Minnesota and it was on a grand scale. It went from extra pencils and glue to...Janelle and I whenever we'd go shopping we'd just throw in extra goodies. It was just given to the teachers. She came home from school. Fall had definitely hit Minnesota. They had a rule at the school that if you didn't have rubber boots, you didn't have gloves, you didn't have a stocking cap, you didn't have winter clothes you couldn't go outside. And they would go outside. Thy believed in getting fresh air. But a couple of Natalie's friends and a couple of people that she noticed couldn't go outside. So, she came home and she asked her Mom and me if we could go, and she was going to get an award for her spelling. And we'd always go to a movie if she didn't have to take a spelling test.

Janelle: To do something special for her.

Brian: She wanted to use that money to go buy clothes or something and take it to school for these kids. Janelle and I, with open hearts that we have, went to Target. They happened to have sales. And I mean, she kind of knew what size and what colors. So, we bought...it doesn't matter what we spent, but we bought boots and hats and gloves and we had two extra sets of snow pants that we had, and a jacket and Janelle took her to school that day and took them in. Natalie did not want those kids to know that it was her. She just wanted to take them into the teacher, give them to the teacher so the teacher could give them out at recess. That was all she wanted. She didn't want no anything. Janelle went in there and the teacher said 'Yeah, right. No. This class, this school gets to know about Natalie, and about her gift of Love and Sharing. And it isn't about putting her up on a pedestal, or look at what Natalie did or what Natalie's family did. But no. This was a gift from Natalie'. And it was okay. But she would always give. The new kid that moved into town, into school, Natalie was the girl who would go be friends with that person, at least on that first day or the second-day, making sure. You know. How to go through the Lunch Line...the whole thing. If somebody was picking on that child and they were crippled or had a speech impediment or something like that, Natalie would make it a point to go talk with that person and most likely, go up to that person making fun and say, 'You know, that isn't very nice'.

Manning: Empathy!

Brian: Empathy. She had a gift of laughter. And there's things that we've read since she passed in her journal. She knew. She knew this was her journey. She didn't know what it would look like. But you can't tell me. Janelle and I have a belief that we were extremely blessed to have been her parents.

Manning: Sure.

Janelle: She chose us.

Brian: She chose us and we were very blessed. But that's who she was. She was a child that you couldn't give a run of the mill answer.

Janelle: Because that was unacceptable. (laughter). She'd pout until you gave her an answer.

Brian: Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, The Kennedy's, you know. Why? She figured out just in the years going to school to History Class and things like that, 'Why do all these people that tried to change the world, why did they get killed? Why did that happen (the arrest) to Rosa Parks?' So, I explained that. And when Natalie wanted to go and sign those petitions, I think some of that came out of how Janelle and I raised her at home. Rosa Parks didn't get up that day and decide, 'I'm going to get in front of the bus that day and create this huge Civil Rights Movement.' She made the change. She did that. If she thought about everything that happened as we know it, she might not have done it!

Janelle: After she was diagnosed (with DIPG) she and I went to the grocery store and she had gotten her leg brace and she said, 'Mom, I used to be a giver. I used to help the kids at school, or be the one that offered a the ones who needed it a little bit of extra help. Now I'm a taker. Now, I'm a taker' And oh! I had to think of something and it just came out, and I said 'You know what, Nat? Yeah, you were a taker. But think about how you felt when you gave, when you helped out others'. She said, 'Well, it made me feel very good'. I said, 'Well, you know what? You're still a giver because, think about the kids that can now help you and how they must feel when they help you'. We learned so much from each other that five-and-a-half months that she was ill. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. But I feel like there were some tremendous gifts within that five-and-half-months that were pretty amazing.

Brian: We prayed every day for a healing in many different forms. And of course, when you're present with a sick child, so much healing took place in our family. Whether it was through kids, or Janelle's first husband Tracy Byrd or my first wife, Roxanne. And the amount of healing that was taking place in our lives, and I mean the different healing and relationships. When people ask us, 'Who was Natalie?', I mean we were blessed. We got to share her through her website and through things and when people ask us now that she's past, 'How do you guys do it? How do you live?' And it's principles Janelle and I live by.

Manning: I constantly think about that with you! Constantly!!

Brian: Well, I mean that's a whole other story.

Janelle: There are days where we don't want to get out of bed. There are days where I see her picture on the wall or whatever, and burst into tears. But there are also days when I see something and laugh because like the feather story. Because she shows up in different ways now. We intellectualize everything so much. But when you heart's cracked wide open from this kind of experience, you're willing to think with your heart a lot of the time. And thinking with our heart is noticing others and noticing things like the feathers.

Manning: You've had feathers show up at your doorstep.

Brian: They've shown up on my leg.

Manning: And I've had an opportunity here in Scottsdale at Camelot Therapeutic Horsemanship to experience that during a Drum Circle one night, where I had to pick a feather afterward. And the feather that I wound up picking for you all was said to have been a rare feather. But I was thinking of you all.

Brian: Feathers became very important in this journey. Feathers started showing up. Janelle is a jogger...

Janelle: I was out jogging even before Natalie was diagnosed, and I was out out jogging on West River Road near where we lived. I was doing my three to five mile run. Sometimes when I run, I pray or do a sort of meditation. And I stopped and was walking and happened to glance over the side of the sidewalk and there was feather laying there. I said "Oh my God, that looks like an Eagle feather'. And I was a little apprehensive about picking it up. And then I decided I was going to, and I picked it up and said 'Thank You' for the spirits that may have brought the Eagle itself. And was standing there looking at it and I took a few steps forward and I'm walking along and I picked up seen feathers in a row. It was really incredible and weird and exciting to find seven feathers like that.

Manning: What time frame was this again? After she passed?

Janelle: A couple of months before she was diagnosed.

Brian: The Eagle feathers.

Janelle: I took them home and I didn't know what to do with them. And I realize now that they were gifts for Natalie because two months later she was diagnosed with DIPG. We were sitting outside out back, Natalie's God-Mother and myself were sitting out back and we were talking about Natalie a few days after she was diagnosed and talking about radiation and what good that was going to do? And about nutrition and just a whole gamut of things. I was talking about, 'Well, I guess we'll just have to trust the process'. I happened to look down and Vicki said 'Look Janelle!' and there was this teeny tiny white feather sitting on my leg and we just laughed. Because we knew that the spirits were around us that the angels were around us and we were blessed and even in this turmoil that we were in we were blessed. From that time on, feathers have shown up at the most opportune times. Vicki is Natalie's God-Mother from Alaska. Vicki went home and she was talking to me on her cell phone and it went out. She called back and said,"I need to have this cell phone looked at because there is something wrong here'. She called me about a week later and said 'Janelle, you're not going to believe this. Guess what?' I said 'What?' She said, this guy took my phone in the back and he said 'Do you own birds or do you bird hunt?' And I said 'No, why?' He said, 'Well, the inside of the back of your phone was full of feathers and I had to clean it out and now it is functional again'. (laughter). So, we have a psychic friend in Minnesota and we were talking about all of the things that were showing up. And she said, 'Well, Natalie was always an over-achiever'.

Brian: Yeah, Katherine Hardwick in Minnesota is a channeler, and it was hard for her because Janelle knew her on a personal basis before Natalie was diagnosed and Janelle went out to a few things that Katherine would have and Katherine would always comfort Janelle. And then, the day that Natalie passed Katherine called Janelle on the phone and there was a big shift, a big shift coming and going to take place and 'How are you doing?' and all of this. And I really honored that. So, these were the people that were called into our life to answer the call, to pick up the phone. And then after Natalie passed, Katherine was also there to be with us and to comfort us and to offer us her support even down to, 'Well, yeah the pipes in your basement are going to leak; your house is sad too'. She channels a group once a month in Maple Grove called The Light Collective. This gal was talking about the pipes leaking in her house and the entities that she channeled told her that the people that were living in her house were sad. We realized.

Brian: We had a leak that we were chasing around the house for months.

Janelle: Then after we came here...

Manning: ...To Arizona...

Janelle: ...yeah, we sprung a leak in our apartment. And it shows up. However it gets to show up, it shows up and I'm really okay with that because we are grieving. We're still grieving and it's been 18 months. We're still devastated, we're still crushed. We get to put one foot in front of the other and we get to be open to whatever messages Natalie sends to that and we get to honor that. Because it was her time to move or go through the door to the other side. Obviously it wasn't our time. Some days it's hard. But we have to trust the process.

Manning: I mentioned on my Blog that I had to spend some time with my Pastor in Lubbock, Texas as I was moving across the country because I had a tremendous amount of grieving and questions and confusion in that, 'Here I am alive and well and Sahara Aldridge has passed away. Why is it that she was taken and not me?' And you know, a lot of us felt this way! B.J. and I stayed up talking for five-and-a-half hours until 3 A.M. on just that subject, and we talked a lot about Sahara! It affected so many people besides me. I even had a reader comment on my Blog recently and they questioned--understandably-- how a child like Gunner Gillespie could go through so much suffering and endure so much and it's so difficult to understand. I struggled again with Gunner's passing! Everyone will have their own questions. But what can you say to a parent who is having such difficulty in dealing with a loss of a child from your experience? I don't want to put you on the spot.

Brian: No. I think that's where we have the advantage over people that haven't lost a child is that we belong to that club of people who have lost a child. To lose child in the way that these child are going through with the brain tumor children, with the DIPG, there's a lot that is behind the scenes that unless you have walked it and lived it...you have no idea. And I don't mean that sarcastically or anything else. But there is no way that I can graphically explain everything and it's just easier to say there's no way you can understand. We have that connection with other parents. But our experience was different than say, Gunner's Momma and Dad, Janna and Gus. Every experience is different. Janelle and I were 50 when Natalie was diagnosed. So, we're older. Our children were older. There's lots of circumstances. The biggest advice that I would give another parent would be: Ackowledge it. Honor it. Accept it. Never forget, and to feel what you're feeling when you're feeling it. Don't say, 'Next month when things are better, I'll feel it'. Or 'My husband and I are going to go on vacation and that's when we're ging to be able to relax and let down'. No. Feel it when it's happening. And these little things that Janelle and I have been talking about like feathers or music, things like that...pay attention to. And the sooner the better. We watched John Edwards in Crossing Over--a national TV show where he channels people. He was talking to a family and that's what he said. He was talking in a back yard and he said usually people don't come through to him when he's doing a home visit. And this husband wouldn't leave him alone when he was there visiting his daughter and his wife. He pointed out some things so is mother would realize that he was there, and then, some things that only she would know, and some things afterward that happened. And she said 'Well, he's been here the whole time!' Another thing is to ask for help, because there's people that are willing to help, there are organizations that are willing to help. If you can talk to someone who has been there through this same experience to be that way. And another one that is tough, I don't know. Maybe people reading this might understand it. Don't have expectations about other people...how you think they should feel. because when you are dealing with a death of a child, people don't know what to say; people don't know how to feel; people don't know what to do.

Manning: I see that on my Blog Page all the time. There may be 900 people on the counter (visitors) and I may have 4 comments. It's only been recently that I've accepted that this is not an indicator of interest or feeling or a lack thereof!

Brian: They don't know what to say. We were over at my Dad's the other day, and Dad and Jewel. I was talking about medical stuff and as soon as there was a parallel in the conversation through either a reference that 'Yeah, we did this when Natalie was sick'. My Dad just totally shut down, looked straight ahead and then removed himself from the table and went into the living room...and of course the living room is where conversations ultimately end up. And it was just easier for him to do that than grieve the loss of a Granddaughter, and then of course on top of that, you've got history here he lost a son (Brian's brother) and the whole thing. Where Janelle and I had losses throughout our whole lives, but Natalie was our only baby together. But to be honest, there's nothing anybody could say to me that would make me feel different. The only thing is, 'Love Ya!' or 'Is there anything I can do'?. But to be the other person who says, 'I'm really sorry about Natalie dying.' I really don't know what to say back. 'Oh yeah, it really sucks'. Or 'Thank you. Thanks for your love and your concern'. But I mean there's that communication to where the power of nothing sometimes is great whether it just be: 'Thinking of you today', 'My thoughts and prayers'.

Janelle: You know that entry I put on Caringbridge and your response back. It really isn't about saying anything. Remember the Caringbridge address where I wrote about 'I See You'? I think that's the most important thing by seeing them, not by looking away. Because we notice that anyway, we just don't talk about it. When a person turns away and says, 'Oh My God I can't..I hope they didn't see me looking at them'. Just acknowledge. To see in each others eyes.

Manning: I don't remember what I wrote!

Brian: You wrote a great response. And that's it. because Janelle and I will write something on the Blog and we'll get 1,000 or 1,500 hits and there will be 2 or 3 people that respond to it and that's okay.

Manning: Yeah, that's okay. I just learned that this past week. That was something new that I learned in my life just this week.

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Please Join Us As We
Wrap Up Our Visit
Tomorrow!

DIPG: THE INTERVIEW PRESENTS BRIAN & JANELLE JONES (PART 2 OF 4)

2009-09-24T08:57:00.000-07:00

Brian & Janelle with Natalie
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This is Part 2 of my 4-Part interview with my dear friends and special guests on "The Interview", Brian and Janelle Jones. Today, we will focus on exactly what DIPG is. It is crucially important that readers understand what makes this particular tumor so unique from others. But first, a word about how I first met Brian would be helpful.

One weekend morning, Gus Gillespie invited me to their hotel suite. Gus told me the night before that there was a special guest at the hotel that he wanted me to meet for breakfast and he asked if I would stop by his suite so we could walk over and meet Brian Jones. At this point, the only thing I knew about Brian was that his career as a pitcher and outfielder in Major League Baseball had been cut short by a sports injury. That was about it. Janelle was not along with Brian on this particular trip. Natalie Rose Jones had died in February and this was barely 5 months later. So, I stopped by early in the morning to pick up Gus and to say 'Hello' to Janna, Gunner and Garlynn. Gus and I left almost immediately and walked across the hotel and resort pool area to the restaurant. I was introduced to Brian and we sat down over coffee. Gus and Brian caught up with one another and they spoke about the medical progress of other children in the Scottsdale area that they had met. I remained quiet for about 15 minutes to just listen and to try and get a sense of who Brian was and how he fit into the equation. Finally, I interrupted the two men and asked Brian politely if he wouldn't mind backing up a bit for me and reintroducing himself so that I could understand his visit. Brian was very gracious and explained that his 10 year-old daughter Natalie Rose had been diagnosed with the same tumor that Gunner was coping with, a DIPG. She lived only five-and-a-half months. I asked when she passed. He replied, "Almost five months ago, in February". I tried very hard to allow this information to soak in, and truthfully, I found it very difficult to speak. I can only imagine that Gus must have read my facial expression and he casually picked up the conversation with ease. Thank God! When Brian rose from the table to refill his coffee and go through the food line, Gus turned to me at the table and with genuine emotion he said, "Brian and his wife lost their daughter. Just 10 years-old. Can you believe this, Michael?" Well, the fact is I couldn't. This really floored me. Anyone who knows me, will tell you that I'm rarely at a loss for words in most any social situation. But as I look back on that morning, I so appreciate that Gus seemed to be the catalyst to get each of us talking and to keep us talking. I believe it was a day later that Brian asked me to stop by his suite. He wanted to know how I came to befriend The Gillespie's and this led to the story of my involvement with a small grass-roots project I had initiated back in Ohio that involved organizing a tour bus for people to attend Sahara Aldridge's fund raising concert in Missouri that rock legend Rick Springfield had organized and performed at back in December, 2006. Our 90-minute visit was very good for me to talk and get some things off my chest. It also gave me a good chance to learn about Brian and his wife Janelle. Little did I know that Brian would become a trusted friend and confidante who would help me through many late night phone calls from Scottsdale to Minneapolis. Because of Brian (and later Janelle after she relocated to Arizona) I was able to understand better what was happening with Gunner over the course of his treatment. Here was Brian answering cell phone calls from me at 1 A.M. back in Minnesota. My emotions were running high in those critical months and I am eternally grateful to Brian for stopping everything he was doing to take as much time to talk with me and lend his insight to into Gunner's medical and emotional situation from his own experience with Natalie. In my quiet time at home, I sometimes think back on those conversations and how much I grew from them. Brian was a grieving father, but he always made the time for me to call him day or night. We had many telephone conversations and to this day, I cherish those talks. As a result, I grew as a person, and I am certain that I was able to become a better friend to Gunner because of Brian's wise counsel. We pick up our visit now.

Manning: One of my deepest regrets was never having the opportunity in this lifetime to meet your daughter, Natalie. I met you (Brian)...

Brian: Right.

Manning...when Gunner (Gillespie) was still here in Scottsdale receiving alternative medical treatment. That's when you and I first became friends. And at that point, I think, Natalie had passed away...

Janelle: Yeah...

Brian: She passed away in February and I was there in the very end of June or early part of July. And yeah, it seems like...but I mean, all children are talented and beautiful, and gifted and everything. But the research that Janelle and I have done with DIPG in going to these other children's websites and stuff...all of these children are really gifted.

Manning: Yeah, and one of the points that I really wanted to get out on this worldwide website interview with the two of you is to spread the word about DIPG. Because the chances are very good that regular visitors to this Blogsite and others who Google "DIPG" from around the world really need to understand it. So, with that in mind, tell us. What is DIPG? It's a brain tumor.

Janelle: Diffuse Intrinsic Pontine Glioma which affects affects around 250 kids worldwide a year. And it's a devastating illness. There's nothing to describe it.

Brian: No. The earlier...it seems that the younger children are diagnosed with it, is like if they've fallen or hit their head when they're real little. So, Mom and Dad takes them to the Pediatrician and they have to do a test. And the only way this is found is through an MRI. A CAT scan won't show it. A CAT scan can show some things, but an MRI is the only thing that proves it, and there is nothing they can do. They don't know where it comes from. And they don't really have any idea on a treatment plan. So, what they've been doing for 30-years is radiation, and a steroid, Decadron has been used and they have have other trials with some Chemo's, but there's nothing that works and life expectancy is five and a half months to eighteen months.

Manning: And I want every reader to know this...the brain stem is in the middle of the brain...

Brian: Right, It's like if you just follow your neck and you just go right up where the brain stem goes into the skull, it's right deep inside there. It's like a piece of conduit. It has everything that functions your whole body and all your motor skills, muscle skills...

Janelle: Basics, basics...

Brian: All your basics run through that piece of conduit. And it's in a place where they can't operate. They used to do biopsies to make sure it was cancerous. But they quit doing those because they all are, then they have to deal with the infection.

Janelle: Well, they did damage.

Manning: They did brain damage.

Brian: They did damage, yeah. Basically, all these kids all look a lot. I mean, it's like Down Syndrome kids.

Manning: Yeah, I'm aware of that.

Brian: Okay. It's very similar with the DIPG children...not in the physical looks. But if you can look at the signs, there's one eye that will become cross-eyed and pulled real bad. Then the motor skills, you're looking at a child who's basically had a stroke. They'll lose...

Janelle: ...They begin to lose basic function.

Brian: It is basically like a stroke in that it begins to affect one side of the body more than the other and that's because of pressure in the brain stem. So, what they're using is Decadron which is a steroid to take that swelling away from the brain stem itself. And that's where the insanity of these drugs and of this disease that the parents will never be able to be the same.

Manning: That is a terrible drug, from what I witnessed with Gunner. God Bless him.

Brian: Well, yeah. And it's the same with all these kids. I mean, if there was a way you could put PMS, puberty, adolescence, drug withdrawal, drug addiction, it's horrible.

Manning: The suffering...

Brian: The insanity. For a little child who is sick, to be given this, and 20 minutes or a half hour after you have an incident, to have them apologize to a parent or family member for what happens...

Janelle: Well, what happens is, their mood. They have great mood swings.

Manning: Emotionally.

Janelle: Yeah. And they get angry and frustrated and they don't know why. It's the drug and they have no control over it. And Natalie used to get real upset. It was a huge fit or anything. She would just spit or whatever and say whatever. And then a half an hour later, she'd apologize and say. "I'm sorry. It's the drug, isn't it?"

Manning: She knew.

Brian and Janelle: She knew, she knew.

Janelle: Our hearts were being broken open during that time, because there wasn't anything we could do to alleviate it.

Brian: Nothing, nothing!

Janelle: Except to be there and hold her hand and be with her through those mid-streams of emotion.

Brian: And the food swings, and I mean they're hungry and that's where I made the analogy that all these different things that people can associate with. If you can throw that into someone who is sick, and as a parent. I mean, we lived in a suburb of Minneapolis. And Natalie first had the radiation, and was on the Decadron, and when it was at the peak of this insanity and they want something, as a parent you want to get them something that might quench that thirst. And if you can't find that in Minneapolis, you're not going to find that. Minneapolis got awfully small, when you're in search of something. And that's the insanity of it. Ninety-nine percent of the time when I went up to the store five minutes away, that whole insanity where Natalie was in when I left was either calmed down or she'd apologize to Janelle. But to this drug. It's a double-edge sword. It saves their life. It prolongs their life. And it's also deteriorating their muscles...all in the same...and she gained...

Janelle: We didn't weigh her, but she gained at least 30 pounds.

Manning: My God, that's a lot for a child!

Janelle: She weighed 85 or 90 pounds when she was diagnosed.

Brian: First, she lost weight because she was sick. First, we noticed that the eye was turned in. So we went to the eye doctor.

Janelle: She just needs glasses, and then she started to stumble a little bit and I was just so out of the loop. And I thought she just got clumsy. You know because of the pre-pubescence. I was a clumsy kid as a child so I just drew that assumption which was so totally off base. But it makes it sad. But I don't blame myself.

Manning: No, of course not. You were trying to get a handle on what was happening.

Brian: Yeah, so she got taller and skinnier with all of these changes. But this drug, your body just expands and you get the Moon-face.

Janelle: Natalie's Oncologist said that she's going to get "the Buddha look". Well, you're not really consciously aware of what that means. And a month into it we started seeing changes. Her cheeks got puffy and her tunny started to get a little bigger. And looking at all of the different kids of the Caringbridge websites, as people have uploaded pictures of the kids as they were progressing, they all had the similar look and it's crushing.

Manning: There is a steroid that you two and I have discussed earlier that is safer, easier?

Janelle: There's nothing else available to alleviate the swelling.

Manning: But what about the drug that you applied for under the clause of "Compassionate Use"?

Brian: It's called Xerecept (pronounced as "Zera-cept").

Janelle: We had done an investigation, up until 3 O'Clock in the morning looking online for something that make a difference in how Natalie was being treated, because the treatment for DIPG has not changed in 30 years.

Manning: Nothing's changed.

Brian: No. They tell you that except basically, there are clinical studies in Chicago for Chemo and for different things and the results are the same. Really, they are just prolonging, and the complications from some of the other kids that we've followed on this Merry-Go-Round of trial study and trial study and trial study, um...it's just hard to watch.

Manning: This is terrible! What can be done?

Brian: To get Xerecept. And we find out about this by doing research as all parents are doing and this was two years ago. The group that has just started on Yahoo Groups, it is the parents who are doing the alternative treatment research. Because when you are told that, I mean here it is 2009. Natalie was diagnosed in 2007--that there's nothing they can do, that there's clinical trials...

Janelle:... that are available here and there. But you have to fit their criteria.

Brian: And beyond that, not much you can do except provide comfort and send your child home.

Manning: And Janelle made a great observation in explaining DIPG to me earlier this evening...it's like there is a one foot by one foot piece of grass and...

Janelle: ...you take a handful of sand and you throw it into that area and that sand is the tumor. And that is the tumor. How do you remove that?

Manning: That's what they mean by the word "Diffuse".

Janelle: Right.

Manning: That's why you can't operate on it, you can't do Chemo, you can't...

Janelle: ...and in such a delicate area.

Brian: You're right in the brain stem where your ability to breathe comes from there. Your basic functions comes from there. That's where all of your basic functions of the body comes right through that piece of conduit that's in our body. Xerecept has about 6 side affects. It was tried on adults. We found about it. We talked to our doctors at Children's Hospital and they did some research and we wrote a letter, and the guy we needed to contact was out of the country, and so it took a little while longer than it should have. Janelle wrote a "Compassionate Use" letter asking them for this drug for Natalie.

Janelle: And freeing them from any liability, freeing the company from any liability.

Manning: This is the drug company?

Brian: Keltic Pharmaceutical. So, we were granted approval! Natalie's doctors were excited because, it;s hard for thenm too...the medical staff and the medical people to give the families this diagnosis. Because they know that as great as Science is, there's nothing to offer. We met with them a week before Natalie passed away, signed all the papers.

Janelle: It was suppossed to be there the week that Natalie passed away. The day that Natalie passed, was the day they were deciding on the dosages and that kind of thing for her. The day she passed. So, you know, the irony of that.

Manning: It's heartbreaking. I'm just so...I...

Janelle: It is! It's devastating, because her quality of life had she been given it six weeks prior--because we had asked for it two months prior.

Brian: What's really frustrating is that you're given a diagnosis and usually you're given it by Neurologists, Oncologists, experts! And they tell you that there is really nothing that can be done. They tell you about life expectancies and you realize how serious it is...

Janelle: You hear 'Mayo Clinic'. The head of Neuro-Oncology there read Natalie's report and he told us individually, because it was just Janelle and I and Natalie at the hospital that night. They told Janelle first, because I stayed in the room with Natalie and then Janelle came back with great composure. And then it was my turn to walk down to the hallway and talk with the doctor. It was a whirlwind of events. It wasn't until a week before Janelle and I sat down and said, 'Okay. What was it the doctor really told you. This is what he told me'. I mean, we had an idea. But between doctor appointments and being fitted for a foot brace and a face shield for the radiation and to be put through everything this poor little girl was put through in a 48-hour period of time--not to mention having family flown in from Alaska, from all over.

Manning: All over.

Brian: For your world to change that drastically. She was diagnosed on the 25th of August, and I turned 50 on the first of September. And on that day, all of our kids were home. They planned a surprise birthday party for me. They got us out of the house for lunch to The Olive Garden. And so that was the first time we had been alone, the first time we had been out of Natalie's reach. But we also knew that Natalie was excited to be there. She loved parties. She loved to celebrate. She loved to make others have fun. And she was about Love, about Life about all of these things and I mean in abundant ways! I mean, if you had a little bit of glitter, she figured out how to disperse it and make it a lot of glitter. And it didn't matter if she was dancing with the Grandma at the party to the Kitty Cat. She was about Life and Giving. You asked me to say a little about Natalie. You're going to have fun typing this next!

Comin

DIPG: THE INTERVIEW PRESENTS BRIAN & JANELLE JONES ([PART 1 OF 4)

2009-09-23T08:55:00.000-07:00

Brian & Janelle Jones

Good Morning, everyone. My Special Guests on this edition of "The Interview" are Brian and Janelle Jones. I first met Brian when the late Gunner Gillespie was living here in Scottsdale, Arizona last summer to receive alternative medical treatments for the same type of cancerous brain tumor that also claimed the life of Natalie Rose Jones, Brian and Janelle's daughter. At the time I met Brian, Gunner's parents Gus and Janna were domicile less than two miles up the boulevard from my residence. Gus and Janna are very dedicated high school teachers whose son received his diagnosis not long after we lost 13 year-old Sahara Aldridge in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. As I have mentioned in previous posts, it was Shannon and Amy Aldridge--Sahara's wonderful parents and my dear friends who first made me aware of Gunner in Benton, Kentucky after he received his diagnosis with DIPG. Janna was staying here with their daughter Garlynn, then-5 years-old and Gunner, who was then 7 years-old. They were here in Arizona to receive alternative medical treatment for Gunner after traditional medical treatments were limited. It was no coincidence that The Gillespie's and I would become close friends after I myself relocated to Scottsdale in early December, 2007. Like Sahara and Gunner, I answered a calling on my heart to befriend Trevor Tredaway, age 4, and his parents Todd and Melinda with their 2-year old daughter Morgan. As odd as it may sound, I wasn't fully conscious of this fact until I became friends with Brian and Janelle Jones who helped me understand much more about what I was experiencing with my outreach to Gunner. I am forever in their debt with Gratitude and Love.

Natalie Rose Jones died only five months earlier when Brian arrived to Scottsdale to explore what he could do to assist a number of children who were here with DIPG and other brain cancers. His visit to the hotel resort where Gunner and his family were staying was to lend supportiveness through love, friendship and training both he and Janelle undertook with Acuscope and Myopulse therapy that helped improve the quality of Natalie's life following her diagnosis. Both Natalie and Gunner eventually died from DIPG, a cancerous brain tumor that is so rare, only approximately 250 children in the world develop it annually! Some 14 months ago, I decided in my own heart that I had to bring awareness to the name of this tumor and many of you will be reading about this today for the first time in your lives.

The term: DIPG stands for "Diffuse Intrinsic Pontine Glioma". In plain language this is a tumor of the brain stem. It is an insidious disease and it can tear families apart. In this four-part visit, you are going to meet a remarkable young couple who have given me so many gifts. Most recently, they gave me their gift of time to sit down with me on a warm, summer evening on Saturday, September 5, 2009 outside a cafe where we had just finished dinner in Tempe, Arizona.

For far too long now, DIPG has been a form of cancer nobody knew about. Others dislike even talking about it. It is, to be certain, a very hard topic. But I feel convinced that it must be discussed out in the open. That's where Brian and Janelle come in. Over these many months, I have sat and listened to their remarkable journey across a bridge--from the life they once had with their beautiful daughter--to the life they now live after her passing. While their hearts have been broken, The Jones' have embraced Natalie's life as a Blessing and a Gift for the 10 years she lived on this earth. For the Jones' (and for this author) life is about choices we make. We can choose to live our lives out of Fear, or we can make the deliberate decision to live it out of Love. Brian and Janelle have taught me--whether they realize it or not--that it is a choice to create relationships with those around us from the standpoint of Love and keeping an open heart. For Brian and Janelle, Natalie remains with them daily in their mind, heart and soul. And as you read their story---in their words---you will discover that they are committed to sharing what they have learned from their ongoing journey with DIPG with other parents to lend them love and supportiveness at a time when this diagnosis often leaves them feeling isolated and desperate. This is gradually changing and Brian and Janelle are helping to lead this effort positively.

This interview was one of the most intense emotional experiences I have had in over 15 years of interviewing actors, actresses and CEO's in offices and homes across the country. I found it more than ironic that Brian, Janelle and I met not in an impressive corporate office building, or a lavish home, but outside a casual restaurant after dinner. We met one day after what would have been Gunner Gillespie's 9th birthday and so this is a fitting interview, and one I feel Gunner himself would approve of! I am certainly aware that in this moment, parents of a child who have just received a DIPG diagnosis will be using "Google" to learn about "DIPG". They will inevitably discover the visit you are about to read today over a total of 4 installments.

The time has come to open up and begin a worldwide dialogue about children with cancer generally, and DIPG more specifically. Unlike other interviews, I had only about four of five questions for Brian and Janelle compared with the 15 or 20 I usually have as a magazine journalist on assignment conducting a business article interview. May this visit over the next 4 days touch your heart in a very positive way.

Manning: Tell us about Natalie.

Janelle: When Natalie passed we dressed her at the funeral home. Anyway, we went in and the funeral director came in wearing jeans and said 'I'll take you back and I want you to know that I leave the radio on in the back there for them'. You could feel his heart in that, in saying 'I don't want to leave it quiet back there for them'. He said you can change the station if you want to, or you can turn it off--however you're comfortable. So Vicki (Natalie's God Mother) and Brian and I walked back, and of course we were standing in front of Nat's body, getting all emotional and feeling sad and talking to her and starting to cry.

Brian: At this time, they're doing the farm report (over the radio).

Janelle: Yeah. So there was talk...

Manning:...out of the radio.

Janelle: It was like background noise as we're sitting there talking to Natalie and the first song that comes on was B.B. King, "The Thrill Is Gone". And the reason why that is significant is that we had taken Natalie to three B.B. King concerts by the time she passed, when she was ten. She had seen B.B. King in concert three times, and the last time we had taken her we were right down in front. He was sitting in his chair on stage and there was a guy who was handing out necklaces and guitar picks. B.B. King was pointing at Natalie, and the guy started to hand something to somebody else and B.B. King started shaking his head, and the guy in the audience finally pointed to Natalie and B.B. King nodded his head 'Yes'. He handed her the necklace and she was just thrilled about it. So, that song, "The Thrill Is Gone" had double meanings to us. To us, it felt like her gift she was showing us was that she was with us. She was our thrill! She was our thrill.

Manning: This happens a lot, every time we talk. Music comes on and it's interesting.

Brian: Just like today, sitting here and doing this (interview) and that song comes on (a Paul Simon Song) which is about a father and daughter.

Manning: What song is that playing in the background?

Brian: Father and Daughter. Yeah, I mean it happens all the time. It's getting in the car and Janelle and I will be leaving the apartment. A lot of times we don't talk to each other.

Janelle: A song will come on the radio and we'll just look at each other and know that through that song, Natalie is speaking to us--whatever song that might be.

Brian: It's just a reminder of being present. It isn't always about her or about her journey. It's about who we are. Music has been a big part of our life. We love to dance, we love to sing. Natalie would love to sing and dance. She was going to be a super-star. Natalie was hugely afraid of thunder and lightning. I mean, you live in the Mid-West. She didn't like the thunder and lightning. The last summer before she was diagnosed, and people say "Oh, the vacation of a lifetime", and that's what it truly ended up being. Natalie and I went out to Oregon and then we drove home and her and I just had a great time together. Then Natalie and Janelle went out to Montana. And in both, you deal with thunder and lightning. We went to celebrate her birthday and Dustin's birthday, my oldest son's birthday. The thunder and lightning was terrible. We were talking about her becoming a movie star and that someday she would have a limo and Mom and Dad could ride around with her because she was going to live with us until she was thirty. Of course by then, we would be 80 (laughter). So, she had it all figured out. In her mind she shifted from fear to ---and this was a week and a half before she was diagnosed---she no longer became afraid of lightning or thunder. That became the paparazzi taking pictures of her. And that's how she conquered the fear and in seeing the beauty. All little girls have fantasies and imaginary things. We drove through probably one of the worst lightning and thunder storms that I had been in. There's an alley between Hinckley, Minnesota and Minneapolis that really gets hit with thunder and lightning and rain. If I had known we were going to hit that, I would have never driven through it. It was ugly. But we had a blast. But like I said, this was a week or ten days before she was diagnosed.

Manning: I only have a couple of questions. But tell us about Natalie. This is a worldwide blog and people need to know who she is.

Brian: Natalie was born August 12, 1997 to parents who were old enough and probably should have known better. Janelle is a diabetic, and I am a testicular cancer survivor. Natalie was born about a week before I turned 40 years old. Janelle and I prayed for a balance in our lives because...

Janelle: ...We were in the middle of starting a new business. I had just moved to Oregon, some fourteen-hundred miles away from where I'd lived, combining a family, starting a new business and it started getting the best of us. I got pissed one day and started telling Brian, 'We've got to do something. We're not married to each other, we're married to this damned cafe. And if we don't do something, start making some changes right away, this is headed for disaster". We talked about it and we decided to pray for a balance in our lives. There was a certain period of time. We decided to pray for maybe fourteen days. Each day, we'll pray for this balance. Probably about a month later I started feeling a little odd. We went into town and I bought a pregnancy test and I found out that I was pregnant at 38 years-old. And being a type 1 diabetic and Brian having survived testicular cancer, was pretty miraculous that we would even conceive.

Brian: The doctor did say it would be a shot in the dark.

Manning: What a joker!

Janelle: Yeah. (laughing). But it was pretty amazing. People say you better be careful of what you pray for. I'm not careful.

Brian: Looking back on that, on praying for balance and for it to be like this--for Natalie to be born, we were a combined family. We had each been married before. Combining a family, there's always bitterness, or step-father, step-mother issues. When Natalie was born, there was a lot of healing that came to our family and to the children. There was this sense that Mom and Dad, you know, Brian and Janelle. This was cool! And now there's a baby sister and now there's a lot of love. All of the kids, except for my daughter, Heather, were in the room when Natalie was born. So that was pretty good birth control too, as in "Wow, we don't want to cause this!" So Natalie came into our world and blessed us with her presence. For ten years, we had her beautiful presence with us and there was a lot of healing. She was so proud of her heritage of being Native American, even though she looked pink. She was excited for the summer sun to come out because she tanned right away. People didn't believe her but she was half Native American.

Manning: Janelle is Native American.

Brian: Yeah. She loved her family back home in Montana--the Northern Cheyenne Tribe. That's what she loved. She loved the Pow-Wows and going back for the Sundance. She talked about it and she studied it and learned and asked questions. She did this from Kindergarten on with anything we were involved with, she would share at school during Show and Tell. She was six. That puts her in the First Grade. We went to a workshop with a guy who turned out to be a real good friend of ours--Peem Arcos (pronounced "Pwem"), who was from the Shore Tribe in Ecuador and was doing a workshop in Minnesota and Natalie went. She went every where with us. If she couldn't be there, then we decided we probably didn't need to be there. We really looked at everything that we did. Peem and Natalie hit it off right away. Peem noticed that she was scared of fire., and felt that kids really shouldn't be afraid of fire. So, he worked with her for three days as a Shaman and then we did the workshop and he invited Natalie to be his helper. And we look back, but even then we knew it was something special. But now we really realize how special.

Manning: For those who may not know what...

Brian: ...A Shaman is a lot like a Medicine Man. He has different teaching and techniques to help the human body to heal or the mind, body and spirit healing process.

Manning: So, she was very in tune with that.

Brian: Natalie was very in tune with that. She would talk to her Mom about certain things. Her memory was excellent. Her grammar, her spelling. She was very intelligent. Her reading, she was very worldly. Very concerned about global issues. I used to watch her cry watching TV about Polar Bears in Alaska. She couldn't understand how great this country's supposed to be and they can't figure out that the ice shelf is falling into the ocean and that nobody cares. She was very troubled by that. Humanitarian issues? It was sad. It's hard as a parent. And I thing that a part of that is that Janelle and I are older. So, everything isn't politically correct. She would ask us tough questions. 'How can people allow this to happen?" "Why are there people on the streets of Minneapolis without any food? Do they not have a house? Do they not have a family who loves them? Can they not go to a church? I thought people were supposed to be able to go to a church if they needed help?" These social-economic questions. You're talking to a six, seven, eight, nine ...I mean. Since she was able to talk, she was asking questions. But we went to this workshop. Then Monday is Show and Tell at her school. There's things that Peem did with us and one of them was that you snort tobacco. It's a liquid tobacco that goes in and cleans out your sinuses, and I mean you go cry. If you haven't cried in years, it opens up things. It's a grounding kind of a medicine thing. And she tried it. Then they blow fire. That's kind of how they clean the spirits around your body and they cleanse you. With Janelle, the Native American Tribes, they smudge.

Manning: I'm sorry. What is smudge?

Brian: With sage, sweet grass and there's smoke all around you.

Manning: Okay.

Brian: So Natalie goes to Show and Tell and she took up the whole hour. And when she got home she said. "Well, I went up first and the kid's were so interested and the teacher said 'Just keep going, keep going". Janelle and I looked at each other and we thought, somebody would be coming to the house to pay us a visit, probably Child Protective Services (laughter). Later in the week was Parent Teacher Conferences and we went. Her teacher said, 'Well, Natalie is an exceptional student, Here is some of her art work and everything is good' and she closes the book and says. 'But what I really want to talk about is what you guys did last weekend'. She was real interested in that and so we explained it to her. She was just amazed at the detail and how Natalie could explain this. So, in a small town in Minnesota, Natalie is explaining to her First Grade class the teaching s of a Shaman from Ecuador and the response was that people began talking about alternative ways of healing and doing things. Then when Natalie was in the Fourth Grade, she did a movie slide show on Ecuador. She did it once in front of the class and they filmed it and they had her do it again later with nobody in the room where it was quiet. She had a love of Ecuador. She had a love of humanity. Her favorite person? She loved Rosa Parks.

Janelle: We watched a program on TV about the civil rights movement and she was so astonished at what went on, that those things could have actually happened...

Manning: ...in our country.

Janelle: ...when they were using the fire hoses, it was crushing to her to see that.

Manning: And the attack dogs...

Janelle...Yeah.

Brian: When she realized that it happened to her heritage--to the Native American community, it really bothered her. And when she found out it wasn't being taught in schools it really bothered her and she questioned that. More than once she took up a petition to Jill, the principal at the school and said, "Why can't we do this? I know of a movie that can be shown".

Janelle: We were watching Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth". She wasn't very interested right at first, but finally came downstairs and was sitting and watching it with us. The next thing we know, she comes home from school and said, "Guess what I did? I went to see Jill and first I asked Cassy if we could show the film and we can't. We can't show it to the kids at school because it's PG-13. So I went to Jill and Jill said, you have to take a petition around"...and this is at the very end of her Fourth Grade year. She took a petition around to get "An Inconvenient Truth" shown in her elementary school. She was quite a little activist.

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Coming Up Next: DIPG Defined...

THE INTERVIEW: BEATLES PRODUCER & AUTHOR KEN MANSFIELD (PART 4 OF 4)

2009-08-16T08:49:00.000-07:00

Former Apple Records Building,
3 Saville Row, London, England

Ken Mansfield was There!

Ken Mansfield Today

Ken and Connie

Manning: There is a story you write about in the book about a tremendous weight that was lifted from your life during a Whitney Houston concert. Because that story showed so much character that every person reading this interview can relate to, I wonder if you could share that moment of truth with us?

Mansfield: Well, it as a moment where God basically says where you read The Word about how God feels about pride. One of the hardest things for me was when everything fell apart was my pride. Because I've always had a ton of pride. There were smaller ways--and I didn't realize this until later--that He tried to make some inroads with me on that and they're all at The Starwood (Theater)--there's three stories. There's Julian Lennon. This is when I was a new Christian and I was really on my bottom at this time and just struggling. I had just come up the stairs up behind the Amphitheater and Julian came off (stage) after doing a sound check and we ran into each other on a cat walk. He walked past me and I just dropped my jaw and I said 'Julian'. And he stopped and looked at me and just said. 'Yes?' I said, 'I knew your father, I used to work for him.' And Julian just looked at me, this dirty old grimy, smelly stage hand. But he just looked past that and it was embarrassing for me to say I was once in a lofty position working to run the company for his father. He looked past that...

Manning: ...No kidding!

Mansfield: ...It was embarrassing. But he just wanted to know more about his father. He went right to that. He wanted to know things. So, I swallowed my pride. The reason that I wasn't going to say anything in the first place was because I was embarrassed. But I did it. And God rewarded me in just having a real conversation with Julian Lennon. The next thing happened was with James Taylor where here I was the head of Apple, and James was one of the first artists we signed and I was on top of the world. James was a new artist. The next time James and I got together, I was Vice President of MGM and we're all hanging out together and because Peter Asher was my friend and his producer. We were in the studio hanging out and cutting records like Fire and Rain. We had that time together. Now, I was working at the Starwood. James was headlining and I had to walk up to him during his sound check and ask where he wanted me to place his amps. And James looked at me and I was grimy, because after you've been out there in the hot sun ten or eleven hours working straight through, you're pretty much a mess. And he looked at me and bless his heart, it took a lot of guts for me. But I still didn't quite get what I was doing. I had to do it. And I didn't really put it together that God was really working on my pride. The night that I was working the Whitney Houston concert, it was like He was stepping it up. I didn't get that until later. (Houston had problems hearing her performance through her on-stage monitors and Mansfield walked out before a capacity crowd that included his former fellow executives sitting near the stage who recognized him as he made the sound adjustments for Whitney). The first time was Julian and it was behind the building--just he and I.

Manning: Right.

Mansfield: And the next time, was with James Taylor on stage with a couple of stage hands around and some musicians. I still didn't get it. So, God put me before twenty thousand people so I could work it out there (begins laughing). I don't know what He would have done next if I hadn't gotten it then! It was hard because I didn't want to do it. He delivered me from my pride. Even if you're delivered from it, you still have to deal with it all the time. These things just don't go away once and forever. I finally got it. I got what He was looking for. It was a great thing to be delivered from that knowing that He had delivered me. I understood what the situation was. Michael, a little caveat to that story. Connie and I were together at this point and she had seen all that I'd done and been through. She said to this day--and we've been together 25 years now--that for her, that's the proudest she's ever been of me my whole life. Not getting a Dove Award or a Grammy.

Manning: So often so many people over-identify with their position in life, and here you had endured such a fall, and yet you survived where a lot of people succumb to a failed career and many of them, sadly, are no longer with us. But you retrenched and began life anew. You write about standing atop the Apple Building rooftop where The Beatles last performed (in the film Let It Be) There was a sense of closure. What is your life like today in your new role as an ordained minster, Ken?

Mansfield: It's not about me anymore. I've structure it out that I'm an evangelist. I didn't really realize that about myself until I got going. I didn't want to go on the road. I did not want to be a speaker or a minister. It's a long story about how I ended up doing that. Once I ended up speaking at churches and being on the road, I discovered that I was an evangelist. My heart is to bring the truth to people. I'm looking at a particular group of people and that's those who normally wouldn't come into a church, wouldn't hear a testimony. But the fact that I know now that whole time period had nothing to do with me and what a big deal I was. It was just God putting together something quietly over thirty years to use later on and if that had to do with me being a big deal with The Beatles, it gave me a background or a platform for me to speak from. In all honesty, I think that everything about my forty years of life, in Ringo's life and Paul's life and Judy Garland's life --everything may have led up to me just mostly speaking before someone in Des Moines and to hit one person and to change their life, and that was the whole purpose with my life. That person may become the next Billy Graham or something. I don't know. We can't fathom how He works in that realm. But it could be that the whole reason for everything I did was that He had his eye on me for later on.

Manning: That's what I understood when you write that when you were leaving the roof of The Apple Building in London recently, and it was just another roof! You just looked in another direction.

Mansfield: Right. Now for Connie and I, it's just to be worthy to the call. We deal with our two dogs fighting in our life just like everybody else. But it's a constant to know that for us to be a good witness, we have to be a good witness. That's my life right now. My main concern is being pleasing to God. I just want Him to look down and say, 'You know, you're a good and faithful servant and in you, I'm well pleased'.

Manning: And by the 'two dogs' example, Ken, you're talking about selfish versus self-less?

Mansfield: Yeah. We're all selfish in many ways. But I just try to feed the self-less dog more than I do the selfish dog.

Manning: Well, Ken I always ask my Guests on "THE INTERVIEW" if they have any final thoughts they would like to share as a sort of way to sum up their message or clarify any points they feel are crucially important to those who will be reading this for some time to come on the Web. And in that spirit I'd just really like to turn the floor over to you for any final thoughts you might like to share with us?

Mansfield: Well, I do have a final thought. I think if I have to have a point. You know, Harry Nilsson used to say. 'Everybody has to have a point'. My point is that it doesn't matter where you've been, it doesn't matter how bad you've been, how wretched and shameless or what a big deal you were, or how you used you life or how long you were that. Once you drop to your knees and ask Jesus to come into your life as Lord and Savior, He's promised all mistakes are forgotten, all sins are forgiven and you're brand, brand new! And you're just as beautiful and shining as the best in the world when you become his child. Even with all your stuff, it's not like when you become a Christian it's going to become a rosy day and that the tattoo of the naked lady with a serpent around her neck doesn't fall off your arm just because you're saved. Because we do suffer the consequences of our sins. We do pay for some of these things. But we are redeemed. If I came to The Lord when I was 15 and you came to The Lord when you were 5, I'm just as saved as you are. I'm just as blessed. I'm just as much as His child. I just want people to know not to let that hold them back--that they feel so unworthy that they're not redeemable, because they are. In my book I write that I just value being a child of the King of Kings so much that because of what I went through before that and my decadence, it doesn't mean I'm more saved. I just recognize the consequence and this is just astounding the difference between the two lives. When I look back now I really think that my best day in the world is not as good as my best day as a Christian. Because there is a peace in the knowing and that hollow spot has been filled up.

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My thanks to Ken Mansfield for making this interview possible.

It's been an incredible week, folks!
Michael

THE INTERVIEW: BEATLES' PRODUCER & AUTHOR KEN MANSFIELD! (PART 3)

2009-08-15T09:18:00.000-07:00

Ken with George Harrison

...with Paul McCartney

...and of course Ringo Starr!

Manning: I found it amusing that you had to borrow a suit for the interview at Capitol Records. For those who are reading about this for the first time, tell us how this came about?

Mansfield: I kept getting called back because the competition for this job was so stiff ,and I didn't have any clothes. I mean, I was just out of college and I had a Folk club and was a Folk singer and I certainly wasn't going to church. So, I didn't need anything for that. My buddy's father was a very wealthy San Diego surgeon and they were out on a European trip, so he took me to his father's closet and there were all these thousand-dollar suits and all of this jewelry, watches and cuff links and tie tacks and all that kind of stuff. He just dressed me up for my interview. Unfortunately, his father was heavier than I was and shorter than I was. So, I had to fold in and double fold the pants and wear them kind of low so they would come down far enough. I had to kind of hold the jacket. But it looked pretty good as long as I didn't move! They kept calling me back, and I would have to go with another outfit. I like to say that I got my job with somebody else's clothes.

Manning: As I read on, it was a bit overwhelming to me to think of you entering The Beatles' inner sanctum. I can't even imagine what that must have been like. Could you share some of that with us? What was it like to, ultimately, enter The Beatles inner sanctum?

Mansfield: Well, the thing that made it possible for me is that when I worked with them for the first time, I worked with them as the District Promotion Manager for Capitol Records on the West Coast. That was my responsibility with the band when they came to the area. First of all, I was an American executive with Capitol Records and that gave me credit with them. But they had grown up being fascinated with California. Here I was, the typical tanned, young hot-shot guy who started to let his hair grow, with a Cadillac convertible and the home up in the Hollywood hills with a pool. I was everything they ever read about! I had a single life back then. In a funny way, they were just as fascinated with me as I was fascinated with them--with their funny way that they said things and I said things like a Californian. Secondly, they were pretty taken with me that I was their age and that everybody else they worked with in the industry was a Chairman of the Board at EMI or Lord of EMI, president of Capitol or whatever. They felt comfortable with me and we got to spend on the first trip...they had a day off and they just wanted to know more about California. They invited me up to the house that they rented to spend time around the pool and stuff. When they came back the next year, we got to work together again and it was comfortable. So, when it came time to set up their record company (Apple) I was the executive they knew in America. They had a pretty high impression of me and they felt comfortable with me. I'm the guy they selected because they really didn't know anybody else except maybe some old fart. When they sent for me, at that point in my career, I just thought that I was as big a deal as they were. I wasn't intimidated by them. I didn't quite understand why they were so big. I knew they were big, I just didn't quite get it. So, I wasn't in awe of them and I wasn't nervous around them. George would store his guitars at my house and all the Capitol guys would stay at my house with a pool and the big house up in the Hollywood Hills. And it was just a natural kind of thing that we were in it together. I didn't think that much of it. As time evolved, there was levels of being in their inner circle--and I found myself on one of the inner circles. There was a couple of circles inside that I wasn't in--that would be the original guys like Neil (Aspinall) and Mal (Evans)--the guys they grew up with. At some point I was really in there to the point where they could talk to me about personal things.

Manning: Ken, for the benefit of my readers who may not be familiar, and correct me if I'm wrong. You're referencing producer Neil Aspinall and The Beatles' road manager Mal Evans?

Mansfield: That's right.

Manning: Okay. Ken, you'll have to forgive me here, because there is simply no way that I can avoid asking you this question. You knew each of The Beatles as friends. Could you give us a thumbnail sketch of each member of the group? You write that John Lennon was the more complicated of the four?

Mansfield: Yeah. John was the one I felt that I never got to know because he was rough on me all the time, and was always yelling at me and expecting so much of me. I never felt like he really felt like I was doing what I was supposed to be doing for them. Later on, when he died, Ron Kass who was president of Apple, told me that John was the one that liked me best...

Manning: ...Oh, my.

Mansfield:... and the reason that he was like that was because he trusted me. And then I understood, because he didn't have to bullshit me. He just cut through the bull and just told me what he was thinking and what he expected, what he liked and didn't like and he was just being straight up with me. That was just his nature.

Paul was like the most popular kid in high school. Everything seemed to revolve around what Paul thought--not badly--it was like, he was the one with all the ideas. It seemed like every project we did was because Paul had come up with it, and that Paul was the guy who kept it going. Paul would just wear you out! I mean. I went out with him at night and I'd have to beg off and go home, and I'm tired. I'm driving with one of the most famous people in the world and I'm just hanging out. But gee, gosh! You could only keep up with that guy for so long.

Ringo was just easy. He and I had the longest relationship. He was the most common, in a way, just the simplest, easy one to be with.

Having said that, George was the one that I really felt the closest to because of George's spiritual bent. He was just so pleasing to me and so gentle, and so caring and so kind, just so soft. And I would have all this responsibility. But I used to get the feeling that George was taking care of me instead of me taking care of him. Each was very individual, very individual.

Manning: There's a lighter note in your book that I just loved. You describe a rather humorous Thanksgiving where Ringo Starr payed a surprise visit to your home and to several of your friends--to of all things--carve a Turkey and then leave! This made for some great laughter about Ringo. Would you mind sharing a little of that for someone who hasn't picked up the book yet?

Mansfield: Well, you know Ringo afterward lived in L.A. for years. That was his favorite residence. And there was just a group of us. It was a very small, tight group of people that hung out together like Harry Nilsson, and a bunch of us that they had long, old relationships with. It was a very tight group that was very comfortable with each other. And we'd just hang and he was always a Beatle. That particular Thanksgiving...and Ringo and I had a tradition of spending every New Years Eve together for years. We would either have it at his house or my house, or this other fellow's house. It was just a tradition with us. But anyway, on that Thanksgiving, there were a handful--probably only three or four of us that invited Ringo over for Thanksgiving dinner. He just didn't feel that he could pick one of us and forget the others. He just got a bone handled English carving set, you know, just a beautiful carving set. So, he decided to just ask each one of us what time we were going to have our Turkey served. And in a couple of cases, we had to adjust our time a little bit and he just said, "I'll come over and carve the Turkey for your guests". So, we had about twelve people there and nobody knew and he comes in with his carving set. The Cook brings the Turkey out, sets it on the table and Ringo just says hello to everybody and starts carving the Turkey and putting it on our plates (laughter). When he was done serving everybody, he took a glass and toasted everybody, takes his carving set and leaves!

Manning: That's funny! You know, I've seen him a couple of times with his All Starr Band and I've just always enjoyed that experience. Are you still in touch? Are you still friends today?

Mansfield: You know, a couple of years ago--we hadn't seen each other in quite a while--and I was just a guest at one of those shows, and backstage we had a hard time keeping a conversation going. And here's two people who had real history. We'd gone through our up's and down's together, and wives together, and the drug scene, and messing up our lives, and getting our lives back together. I represented him later in the 90's and helped him bring his career back. I mean, we had so much history together! And yet, because we hadn't seen each other for years and now I'm in the ministry and he's still rockin' and after, you know--'How's Barbara (Bach) doing?' and 'Man. you know, how are you doing?' I think we'd just look at each other and it was uncomfortable.

Manning: Oh!...

Mansfield: ..I think for both of us. And to me it was like we had just gone our separate ways and just nothing bad, I don't know. It was very strange! Very strange.

Manning: My oldest brother and I were reminiscing about our late father coming to America through Ellis Island and my brother said to me, 'Back then, you could basically just get a job and eventually make it in America'. And those words came back to me when I was reading your book, because you had a similar quote where you write: 'Back then, you used to have a dream and just go for it. Talent and imaginings could come off the street with heart and a handshake and become famous'. How is that different, Ken, from today's crowded music scene? And what are your observations about today's artists and the music you hear?

Mansfield: Well, what was possible then is not possible now. Because now, you have to have a whole consortium behind you. You have to have had a lot of prior history in terms of experiencing making your own records and prove that you can sell records and you can sell out auditoriums, and you have to have a manager and an agent and you have to have money behind you and all that. It's all become big business! It's all accountants and attorneys. The groups are no longer...in a lot of cases...like we were in those days, we picked each other because we liked each other and we liked what we did. And we had a history together in other ways. But you know, now groups are manufactured a lot where they pick a guy from St. Louis with a low voice and a guy from Chicago with a high voice and you pick, maybe some good looking guys for the girls and they just fabricate these groups. And even though these groups are making good records, they never last. But the Stones and The Beatles and all these people are still out there performing in the geriatric stage of their life. It's because they were real people! They were put together because we loved the music...

Manning: ...Absolutely, yeah!

Mansfield: ...We would have done it for free, you know? So, there's a different mind set about the whole thing. Now it's a way for the Black kid to get out of the ghetto. It's a way for a White kid to get a Mercedes, just a way to make money and become famous. Almost everybody I knew back then, we were startled when we became successes! It wasn't our main goal. Our main goal was to make music! And then all of a sudden, all of this stiff starts happening. It was confusing to us, for the most part. The music business today? ...As successful as I was for so many years, I couldn't even begin to be successful these days because I just don't have that mind set.

Manning: And the music being made today...do you stay current, Ken?

Mansfield: I do, I do. And from the standpoint that I really like what's happening with the Alternative bands these days because I can hear the influence of maybe five or six bands from the past in there.

Manning: Oh, really?

Mansfield: Yes! I hear it as influence and not as copying. I hear it as music they grew up with. You know, riding in the car with their Dad and Mom was making breakfast and playing her music. I hear this music being part of them. They're picking up on things that they've gathered over the years. I mean I hear a lot of creativity. The fact that they can't get a record deal done like they used to and they have to go their avenues. And the young, Alternative bands are returning a little bit more to what we were like in a way. So, I find it very crazy. The only problem I find is I'll hear a band...I'll hear a record that knocks me out! But I can never remember the name of the band because I never hear another record by them. It's very seldom. I just heard a band that did a song on, So You Think You Can Dance? and they're called Blue October. I loved the song. I'm curious to see if I can hear anything else by them.

Manning: Yeah, I'm reminded of Hoobastank and their hit, 'The Reason' (2004). And I never did hear anything after that. (The group actually had two additional hits: 'Crawling in the Dark' and Running Away'). Not long ago, I wrote a Blog about what it was like for me sitting in the second row at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas at a Tom Jones concert. with some young guys from Wales. And he managed to pull off his own arrangement of 'The Reason', and the place went nuts! He was that good, I mean--a standing ovation.

Mansfield: Yeah.

Manning: I have the CD from that band (Hoobastank) but then, nothing.

Mansfield: Well, yeah.

Manning: Do you find that there are friendships with those people who were part of your career before you found God? Are those friendships still intact now that you're into your ministry?

Mansfield: I found that when I became a Christian, I felt that all of those past relationships would go away, that they wouldn't like me anymore. But what I found instead was a sense of respect that I really didn't lose any friends. If I did lose them it was just because they were so out there that they actually rejected me. But that was not the main thing. I found that I didn't lose any friends. It was a sense of 'Oh, Ken's got it together now. That's cool.'

Manning: A sort of relief.

Mansfield: They respected the choice I made. Like Glen Campbell. Glen and I were crazy back in the old days, but it was a double-edged sword. We were really able to share our faith together, which was really neat. But it's real special in that way. And I've had some of my old rocker friends come up to me and just say, 'There's something different about you now. What is it, you know?' (laughter)...they didn't know that I was saved. They just knew there was something different about me. I liked that a lot. And I was able to witness to them .

My amazing visit with Ken Mansfield concludes this Sunday. His new book is called "Between Wyomings: My God and an Ipod on the Open Road" and it's very cool. We'll be back here Sunday for some final thoughts from Ken. Stay with us!

THE INTERVIEW: BEATLES' PRODUCER & AUTHOR KEN MANSFIELD! (PART 2)

2009-08-12T00:00:00.000-07:00

Jessi Colter, Ken Mansfield and Waylon Jennings

Waylon Jennings with Ken Mansfield

The Legendary LP Produced by Ken Mansfield

Manning: You have a wonderful respect for the spirituality of the Native American culture that is evident throughout your new book. How did this come about?

Mansfield: I grew up in it! I grew up observing it. I grew up in a small town where the Indians were treated even less than second class citizens. They were shoved off a reservation and when the reservation started looking nice, they were shoved off to a reservation that wasn't so nice. Because the White man wanted the land. There was a law, for example, that they weren't allowed fire water--which meant alcohol--and there was this mentality that we had a right to withhold anything from them. They were given just barely enough money to live on by the government who held them in poverty. Here were these people that were so beautiful that they loved the land. Their philosophy is 'We don't own anything; God owns everything'. They never drew property lines. Their property was shared and they were so in tune with nature in terms of how they just lived off the land. They were really into seasons and they had very strict tribal rules about morality and everything. You could take these things and just plug them right into a Christian lifestyle. I don't agonize over 'Well, wait a minute. Why am I so attracted or why do I fee so strong about the Indian spirituality?' When I became a Christian, I'm totally sold on that. I believe everything God said is true. I believe The Bible is the inerrant word of God and so I don't have these two things in conflict. I don't quite understand the difference. But it's not for me to know. I just know where I'm supposed to be. I happen to love the way they live. I just treasure having known that kind of background. It was always surrounded with beautiful rivers and trees and forests and hills and I think I was just very blessed to have been able to grow up with that.

Manning: During Christmas of 1996, you were diagnosed with an incurable form of cancer and you were told by doctors that you had maybe one to three years left to live. Where were you in your spiritual journey at that time and how do you explain that you are still alive today?

Mansfield: I was very deep into my spiritual journey at that time and I think that's why I was able to react the way I did. I just trust in God so much that like I said, if that had happened to me when I was in the world, I would have been absolutely freaked out. I don't think I could have even begun to handle it. I just trust Him so much and even when a situation like that comes about, all you just have to do is to give it to Him and it's already been paid for on The Cross--everything about it. In my first book I reprinted a letter I had from God that said, 'Dear Ken: Either you believe or you don't. Love, God'. And that was the strength He gave me. It was a peace that passes all understanding. It was Him saying, 'If you really do believe, then here's my gift to you--this peace. You're into something that is this big deal and you're having peace and that is my gift to you, and that's like your proof to yourself that you really believe. You don't need to question whether you trust or believe in me'. I had experimental treatment and it worked and there was no research on the cancer. It's still incurable. I still have the cancer. But I mean, here I am. I'm way out here. I'm already a miracle in terms that I'm twelve years out now on that cancer--almost thirteen years.

Manning: I want to go back to your career a little bit because I think my readers will find this fascinating. Your book is written in a fascinating way where you include personalities like Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson and Glen Campbell. Then you reflect on your spiritual path. For somebody reading about you for the very first time, how do you go about reconciling the trappings of being such a successful record company executive and a producer at the top of the world when your life became the exact opposite in Nashville in the 1980s?

Mansfield: It came about in pieces as a process. I wasn't a Christian. I dealt with it in worldly terms. I freaked out, I got higher, I would do anything to make a buck. I was available. I wanted to get back on top. I was dealing with all that pain and disillusionment and my pride lost and having to go bankrupt, and having my wife leave me, and having my kids end up on drugs and losing my estate and everything. It was one thing after another and it was horrible. But this was all stripping me down to nothing. I went to Nashville to start over with Willie and Waylon and the boys and all my crazy 'Outlaw' friends. I was there to get more drunk, more high, more women, more everything--that how I would react to it all. The third day I was down there, God put Connie in my path and she just turned everything right around right away. So, there I was three cardboard boxes and no work, no money, I owed a lot of money and I was hands-off with a lot of record companies because of my drug rep and all that.

Manning: You write a lot about your close relationship with Waylon Jennings. He was the Best Man at your wedding and he stated that you were the only producer he trusted who understood him. How would you describe Waylon to my readers? He was a quiet, personal man wasn't he?

Mansfield: Well, he was the single most off the wall person I ever met. He and I just had an affection for each other and we were so alike and so different at the same time. The things that we were alike were what drew us together and the things that we were different about is what fascinated us with each other. The main thing with Waylon was that he really didn't care what other people thought. And I mean he paid the price for that. It wasn't like he was trying to be a rough cowboy, or a stud or a James Dean. He was Waylon. If you didn't like it then that was fine. He didn't care if it cost him. He was going to do what he did and that was it. That was very liberating in a way. He didn't give a shit. Now, mixed in with that, the single most talented artist I worked with starting with The Beatles and Andy Williams, or Judy Garland or whoever was Waylon Jennings. He was just the single, authentic, truly uniquely talented person I ever worked with and I admired his music so much and I was a giant fan of his.

Manning: I was too. By 1975, you were firmly established as a major force in what we know today as the "Outlaw" movement in progressive country music and I noticed something you wrote. "Hooking up with the 'Outlaws' was like jumping on a rocket". How did you become attracted to the 'Outlaw' movement?

Mansfield: Because the producer is the songwriter and the arranger and all that stuff. I never liked to make the standard record. My first great adventure in the music business as a creative person was during the Folk-Rock era. I put together a six-piece group down in San Diego called The Deep Six. First of all it was five guys and a girl--which was unusual. Second of all, we did very involved harmonies and we were also electric instruments and we dressed really wild. We had a hit record on Liberty Records. So that evolved into what became that whole Buffalo Springfield, Byrds,Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young---that whole era that was coming out of Southern California. That was unique, because I grew up on Country, I fell in love with Folk music and yet I loved Classical music and Jazz. I was able to incorporate all these quirky things I do into that. I became a real producer, and I was always trying to make records into two markets. I wanted to make a record that a Pop person and a Country person could buy. Or a record that a Pop person and a a Rock person and an Easy Listening person could buy. That's what (Jessi Colter's) I'm Not Lisa came from. Country, Pop and Easy Listening.

Manning: Where did Waylon Jennings come in?

Mansfield: When I heard Waylon, I heard stuff in that first record that I never heard before. There was something that wasn't like George Jones. I was just fascinated with this man. And we met in this ballroom. It was like we were both working our way through this crowd and we ended up face to face. He knew who I was; I knew who he was. And we stood there and it was like this school fight about to begin where everybody backs off, and we're just looking at each other. The thing that put us in a conversation was that I was producing artist Doyle Holly who I took out of The Buck Owens Band and he made his first solo album. The concept I had was that I wanted to have a Waylon-esque track underneath, that beat of Waylon, that feel in there. I just said to him,"So, Waylon, who produces your records?" He just kind of looked at me like I was crazy and he said, 'Well, I guess I do'. I told him I was working on this project and I asked him, 'Would you be interested in arranging a couple of the songs on it?' He just gave me the funniest look, and it turned out that no one had asked him to do that before! Nobody had ever given him credit for anything other than just being this crazy cowboy. We ended up doing this record together and it ended up being a hit for Doyle Holly. It was called The Queen of the Silver Dollar. It was just magic for us in the studio together! Waylon taught me about feel and soul and that the lyric was the dominant thing. But what I brought to Waylon was that I wanted to be like Alan Parsons. I liked this really English production, really technical approach, spending time on stuff, and he loved what I brought to the table in terms of technology. Together we came up with something to where we could do the feel thing, and I would spend time on the technology thing and the record started sounding better. He trusted me and he would start leaving me alone with the tape.

Manning: You're also a musician and you started out with The Town Crier. You graduated from San Diego State University with a Bachelor of Science degree in Marketing. But can you tell us how you started as a performing musician and how that set the background to the remaining part of your career?

Mansfield: What it did is it gave me a background so that when the time came around for me to actually be in the business, I had a good background because of it. I was in a fraternity in college and that was during The Kingston Trio and The Limeliters era. I ended up in a folk group and we were singing for beer and pizza. We started playing the small Southern California clubs and some Beverly Hills manager saw us one night and signed us to open for Fred Astaire and opening up for Mitzy Ganor and Steve Allen and Dick Gregory. These were big name for the time. I set up a folk club in San Diego--there was The Troubador in Los Angeles and The Hungry I in San Francisco. My club, Land of Oden was in San Diego. In this process, I met somebody from Capitol (Records) who was the head of Artist Relations and I was always out looking for action for my club and he was out scoping the club scene so he could make sure he was up with what was happening with these artists and we just struck up this friendship. When I interviewed for the job with Capitol, not only did I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Marketing, but I also knew the street . I also knew what was happening for bands on the road. I also knew what it was like in the down and dirty club scene. All my life. it's all been about music. So, I had a great musical library in my head, so I could just talk with anybody about any kind of music. This all led up to the big thing at Capitol Records. Within eight months at Capitol, I ended up working with The Beatles. Pretty soon, they asked me to come run their new record company (Apple) in America.

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Friday: John, Paul, George and Ringo!

THE INTERVIEW: BEATLES PRODUCER & AUTHOR KEN MANSFIELD! (PART 1)

2009-08-10T09:05:00.000-07:00

My Guest on "The Interview", Ken Mansfield

Ken's New Book Just Released

It is my sincere privilege to welcome Ken Mansfield as my special guest on "THE INTERVIEW". Ken is a Grammy Award winning record producer and the former U.S. manager of The Beatles' Apple Record Company. As a top record producer and an executive with several renowned labels (including Capitol Records), Ken has also been associated with Waylon Jennings, James Taylor, Roy Orbison, Glen Campbell, Nick Gilder, David Cassidy, War, Eric Burdon, The Osmonds, Hank Williams, Jr., Tompall and the Glaser Brothers, and John Sebastian of Lovin' Spoonful, Bobby Gentry, The Beach Boys, Deep Six, Byron Berline and Sundance, Andy Williams, The Imperials, Flying Burrito Brothers, David Frizzell, OXO, The Steve Miller Band, Quicksilver Messenger Service, The Band and Jessi Colter--to name but a few musical artists. Moreover, Ken was at the center of the "Outlaw" movement in country music, which he helped popularize. The progressive country music scene of Willie and Waylon took off like a rocket ship in the 1970's. Ken produced Waylon Jennings' top-selling album, Are You Ready for the Country and Jessi Colter's crossover hit song, I'm Not Lisa. Ken's career through the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's grew at a fast clip.

Armed with a marketing degree from San Diego State University, Mansfield became employed with Capitol Records as one of its youngest executives at age 27. When The Beatles decided to form their own corporation in 1967, they turned to Ken Mansfield to run their record division as U.S. Manager of Apple Records, where he was involved with such legendary projects as The White Album, Yellow Submarine, Abbey Road and Let It Be. It's more than ironic that I previously ran photos and footage of the final live concert The Beatles performed atop the Apple Record Building on January 29, 1969. Ken is the man wearing the white winter coat at that truly once-in-a-lifetime musical event. By the 1980's, Ken's professional success with wealth and materialism collided with tremendous debt, and he succumbed to ruin with only a suitcase and a few boxes of clothing to begin his life over in Nashville, Tennessee. He survived!

In his newly released book, Between Wyomings: My God and an Ipod on the Open Road, Ken and his wife Connie take to the open road in their van to reconnect with the good, the bad and the tragic periods of his life over 10,000 miles. As a man who started his life over again, Ken weaves a fascinating story against the background of the musical artists and circumstances that were once an integral part of his life in Los Angeles, London and Nashville. The book is a delightful read that flows by as if the reader were along on Ken's journey watching the white lines of the roadway pass by. This is Ken's story written with a rare honesty and humility.

Today, Ken and his wife Connie reside in the California Sierra Nevada Mountains, far away from stadiums and clubs filled with screaming fans who filled his life for decades. Ken is an ordained minister and a highly sought after public speaker who appears in colleges and churches across the nation. He is the also the author of The Beatles, The Bible and Bodega Bay and The White Book. We caught up with each other last weekend and here's how our visit unfolded.

Manning: Well Ken, you've certainly had a remarkable career in a rough and tumble business that was filled with accomplishments. Today, you're an ordained minister and on a new journey in your life. Do you miss the music business?

Mansfield: There's a song that says: "I remember the good". And I do remember that and also in the same fact, I don't really miss it. I don't feel that I should still be doing it. I think that I have a very proper reflection of that (period). Because God's blessed me with kind of forgetting the bad and remember the good. There was a time for me to be over with it and simultaneously, the business decided it was time for it to be over me. We had a great respect for each other after thirty or forty years.

Manning: Sounds like a very healthy philosophy.

Mansfield: Oh, it is and I just think that it's a gift from God because I have so many friends who just can't let it go.

Manning: There were so many things you wrote in the book that I admired. One area was where you discuss hitting bottom in the 1980's. This was after you were unfairly targeted in a false smear campaign by a rival manager, and you paid for it dearly.

Mansfield: Oh, yeah!

Manning: How did you make the decisions to emerge from that dark period and to get back on your feet?

Mansfield: I didn't make that decision. I was incapable of really making good decisions at that point because everything I thought was in terms of the world and how I could get back, get even or get going. It was all me and what I could do. I take no credit. I praise God everyday for the circumstances He put me through, but I'd be brought all the way down to my knees to the very bottom. I know myself. I did know how I'm put together, and God loves me so much that in order for me to get broken, I had to go broke first. I just praise Him everyday for the circumstances I went through. Because if I wouldn't have gone through them, I would just never turn to Him. I would never need Him. You know? Why would I need Him if I was doing so good? So, it was a real blessing. Real blessing.

Manning: It's impossible not to mention the role of your wife Connie during this time frame. You credit her for saving your life. But from what you write, she was no push over either. She obviously wasn't drawn to you for your past achievements in the music business. When did you know that your relationship was serious when Connie entered your life?

Mansfield: The first time we went out, she pulled back her hair so I could see her face better. It was over! The last thing in the world I needed was a relationship. It was the last thing I wanted. I was stone broke. I had nothing. I wasn't in a position to be dating, and I had nothing to offer except I was a stoner, I had a guru, my life was messed up, I had a bad reputation. If I had put an ad in the paper, no one in their right mind would have answered it.

Manning: Wow!

Mansfield: And here she was at that point in time pressing into The Lord more. She had set aside a whole year just pressing into The Lord. She wanted to draw closer, and she was at the deepest point of her walk. I was absolutely not what she was looking for. We both just fell in love that first night. There was no question that when we met, that God had put us together. Because I had walked into a "Music Row" hangout in Nashville after flying into town a couple of nights before, and I walked into that place for like ten minutes, and she walked in for ten minutes. We had never seen each other, and I was rather aggressive and I did get her phone number. But God had a purpose. We've had this phenomenal marriage now. She's my side-kick in ministry now. She brought me to The Lord. She's just a faithful, faithful servant and no question about how we got together.

Manning: You've lived in the fast-lane of Los Angeles, Ken. Where do so many people become lost and find their personal lives in serious trouble in the entertainment world today?

Mansfield: One of the first problems is that we all start believing our own press and our publicity and we start thinking we are these people that we're touting ourselves to be. The reward for success is indulgence and decadence. If you are in this lifestyle, it's very gradual. When I first got into the music business I saw these crazies. All kind of crazies: drugged-out crazies, ego-crazies, there were power-crazy people and I thought. 'I'm just here for the music. I'm never going to become one of those people'. And about ten years later, I just stopped and I said, 'Wait! I am one of those people! That's exactly what I am'. Little by little, I don't care how you're brought up and how good you come into the thing. But you just give up a little piece here and there. 'Well, okay. I'm cool with this. Okay, I'll let this slide'. And all of a sudden one day, you've given away all of the pieces.

Manning: That sounds like a stark realization. When you and Connie started your road trip in your van, Moses, yo write that you "felt adrift with no real roots", and I wanted to visit a quote you include from Donald Miller's book, Through Painted Deserts.

"We get one story, you and I, one story alone. God has established the elements, the setting and the climax and the resolution. It would e a crime not to venture out, wouldn't it?

"It might be time for you to go. It might be time to change, to shine out. I want to repeat one word for you: Leave"

This is such a powerful passage for a man who seemingly had it all with the intoxicating fame, money and power so many dream about in the music industry. At what point did you decide to write this book?

Mansfield: Like most of the books I write, in some way I've been writing them for a long time. This book really came out of a book that I was incapable of writing because of my style of writing. I had an idea for a book entitled Stumbling On Open Ground. And that's taken from Jeremiah where you know, 'If you are weary running with men, how are you going to race with the horses? If you stumble on open ground, how will you do in Georges' Jungle?--I'm paraphrasing. I had this idea of stumbling on open ground, and I thought. 'Here I am. I'm a Christian. I've got all the promises, I've got all the assurances, I know everything about how my walk is supposed to go with The Lord. So, why would I have any doubt or any confusion? Why am I still stumbling on open ground?' So, I did start out on a journey where I went from very famous Pastors like Lee Strobel and it was kind of a book I was writing about 'Why Bad Things Happen to Good People?' type of thing. With Lee, I approached the subject and he gave me an answer. My whole idea was to travel from place to place to a Pastor of my youth, to the Pastor that brought me to The Lord, to the Pastor that spoke at my wedding. I was going to tape record all of these different kinds of Pastors, similar to what you and I are doing right now, but I'm not a reporter. I really had a hard time constructing it. I found I could write the travel part of it. But all I could do was repeat. I couldn't put anything of me in the other part. So, I ended up just putting it by the wayside. But it really inspired this idea of movement and gathering and revisiting this book really came out of that. The original title of this book was Idaho, I Don't Know. I Think I'll Take My Banana's and Go--which is a chapter title and I explain that.

Manning: Sure.

Mansfield: Maybe Moses was my next title. Between Wyomings--I had nothing to do with that, My publisher suggested that after reading the book. It has great meaning in it and it is a metaphorical journey and I mention in the book . The trip in the book is not an actual physical trip in total. It's a trip made up of a lot of little trips and what I did is that I glued them altogether using the van as my vehicle. I've traveled all those roads and experienced all those things and all those things happened. But they didn't happen all one at a time like it said in the book. What I did is I recreated the road trip of my life and put together as one single trip. And that was the idea that gave me the freedom to really kind of branch out a little bit more, so I wasn't totally restricted by the concept of the road trip where I was able to kind of put it together as I wanted to. I wanted to let it unfold in a linear way, and Moses (the van) was more or less my foil in this thing.

Manning: Early in the book, you were reflecting on thirty years in the music business and two quotes stood out to me that would be of great interest to my readers. On the one hand you said, "As the old saying goes, if you remember the sixties, there's a real good chance you weren't there". And then afterward you write: "I must admit that I write like a Christian on acid. But to be honest, the whole entertainment industry is built on induced fantasy and even less certainty". It sounds to me like Ken Mansfield then and now?

Mansfield: Well, you know, we are now from what we were made up from then. When I say that I 'write like a Christian on acid', and I promise you, I'm just so in love with The Lord--that's just everything to me. But when I start writing, I sometimes just start tripping out. The whole thing about getting high back when I used to get high is really about finding what we're like when we're not getting high on drugs, we're getting high on the beauty of the life that God gives us and His love and His mercy and His grace. So, when I start writing about that, it's almost like my mind goes into this other area and I really get out there sometimes. I really have to pull it back before it goes into print. I'm able to write about things as a Christian. But I'm also able to kind of let my life expand and pull in all the kind of nice things around it--almost like I'm sitting here with The Bible in one hand and getting a little high and writing.

Manning: Ken, I have wide variety of wonderful bloggers and readers worldwide. Some are Christians, others are agnostic and some are athiests. I'd like to read a quote from your book about a tremendously honest statement you make about your faith. "To be brutally honest, there are times when I actually don't like being a Christian. It's that peculiar place That I find myself when I am really up against a stone wall that blocks me from my walk. It should be no surprise that there is a direct relationship to the fact that this is usually what happens when I am setting my own rocky course". It's a very human conflict you're describing, isn't it?

Mansfield: We live in that conflict! It's made very clear in The Bible that we have our human nature and our Godly nature and these two are always warring with each other. And so when I say something like that, the thing that's always the hardest about being a Christian is that you don't have as many choices. Before, I could go out and I could get high or I could do anything that I wanted. Now, there's a very limited way that I can really respond to a situation and they all have to be as God tells me. So, what He's doing is this. He's made me independent. But that independence sometimes feels very restricted. I don't get to do everything my way anymore--which is absolutely the Good News. There's an old story that I thought about putting into the book, because I love the Indian people. I grew up around them and their beauty. There was an old Indian guy that got saved, and after a while he said he wanted to talk to the Pastor. And the Pastor said 'What's the problem?' The Indian said, 'Since I've been saved I feel like there's these two dogs fighting inside of me all of the time. And like, one's the dog that wants me to do the sinful things and the other is the dog that wants me to do the right thing--the Godly things. And these two dogs are driving me crazy'. The Pastor said, 'Which one is winning?' The Indian thought for a minute and said, 'The one I feed the most'. That's the dilemma that we have is the dog that is winning is the one we feed the most. There is that conflict we have inside.

Wednesday: We journey back to Ken's career in the music industry. We'll talk about Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson and yes...The Beatles all straight ahead. As always, thank you for joining us!

THE INTERVIEW: CONNIE DOUGLAS & SHNNOOGLE (PART 4 OF 4)

2009-07-18T17:25:00.000-07:00

Concluding my visit with the amazing Connie Douglas!

...and Shnnoogle!

Today Connie and I wrap up our amazing visit. She shares with us her very personal commitment from the heart about "the Shnnoogle in each of us" and what we can do to make the world a better place, one act of kindness at a time. It will leave you with an unforgettable emotional impression about what each of us can do to improve our world, beginning within ourselves and our communities. Here's where we ended up:

Manning: How do you like to work? Do you have 'a backup plan for another backup plan' strategically-speaking?

Douglas: Right now, I'm just seeing what happens with the hospital. I'm trying to get a feel for: 'What are kids responding to? Where are they getting their energy out of this story?' They obviously were really liking the power cards and, of course I made Shnoogle cookies too.

Manning: Again, just for the benefit of my readers, this is the Oncology Department where you are working to make a positive difference in the lives of the patients on the ward.

Douglas: Yes.

Manning: Is your primary focus on children with cancer?

Douglas: That's just where I started. It could be any children; it doesn't have to be sick children. It just happens to be that I have an opportunity there because that's where I started when I created Shnnoogle. The hospital knows who I am and it's going to let me enter into their space and share this with those children. I could also see going to local schools and reading to them and talking to them and giving them Shnnoogle cards and getting them to talk about it the next day. I may do that in the Fall. I just believe that if I keep trying and if I keep doing, it will find its way to grow. People will respond to it.

Manning: Shnnoogle is so new. But are people receptive to it from the children to adults that are in a position to help further it along?

Douglas: Yes! All of the people at the hospital and some of the parents who saw it are very supportive of this.

Manning: What joint ventures, if any, do you see as possibilities for others to align themselves with the direction of your work?

Douglas: I could see Shnoogle going to television--not only teaching children the basic A, B, C's and Math and how to spell. It's teaching them something bigger in life and that's how to get along, how to interact, how to be human, how to be compassionate and better as people as we grow older and not just statistics. It helps us relate to relationships in our future whether it be our husbands, or wives, our brothers or sisters, people of different cultures. That's the light. That's the Shnnoogle in all of us. Of course writing books, interactive games children could play, especially with Krudgel, and who is winning and what are the conflicts. There's a lot of potential. There's Pixar animation. Children who are without their sight could learn with braille or CD's where they could hear the story. Eventually, Shnnoogle puppets could be made where you could touch it and feel it. Shnnoogle is just feeling loved and loving in return. We all do it and are more capable of doing it everyday. The more conscious we are of it, the more we act on it and the world will be a better place.

Manning: I always ask my Guests if they have any final thoughts they care to leave the reader with?

Douglas: Just that Shnnoogle is about the light inside of all of us and our capacity to love. There's so much negative stuff going on in the world. But there's also a lot of positive things going on in the world. It's not all beyond our reach. We don't have to count on the government to save us, or for another source to make it better. Because we're all capable. If we all took responsibility for sharing and being kind and loving to our neighbors, to our family, to our friends, we could all be our own heroes to the world. There wouldn't be a need for some big conglomerate or for the government to save us. We're all capable.

Manning: How are you doing physically?

Douglas: The MS? I'm feeling pretty good. Sometimes when I get overly fatigued or stressed, I can feel some of my symptoms pick up. So, I'm conscious. It's always a constant reminder for me. You just never know when you're going to be incapacitated or incapable and it just makes me think and appreciate every moment and to work even harder to get Shnnoogle off the ground. Because I don't know if I might wake up one day, and I can't paint again or will have a hard time speaking? So all of this stuff I have inside of me that I want to share, I don't want it to stay locked up inside of me. I would like to be able to get it out there.

Manning: If somebody is reading this interview right now, and wants to see the project and help you make something happen, how can they become involved?

Douglas: They can go to the website (http://www.shnnoogletales.com/) because everybody has a Shnnoogle story to write in and tell about. Something wonderful somebody has done for another person. We need to become conscious of those things we take for granted.

Manning: Your website is up and part of it is still evolving.

Douglas: Yes, we are looking at a number of new ideas. For example, a Shnnoogle Award for some amazing story of good-heartedness that somebody shares with us. People love doing good things! They love being touched by hearing somebody do something nice. You yourself heard about my story and took an interest! We're all just people, no matter where you are. We're setting up a page on the website to send Shnnoogle stories too. But people can write to me on the website.

(My Thanks to Connie Douglas for making our visit possible).

THE INTERVIEW: CONNIE DOUGLAS & SHNNOOGLE (PART 3 OF 4)

2009-07-17T17:23:00.000-07:00

Manning: What would bring you the greatest happiness and fulfillment as an artist with this project?

Douglas: I would love to see it reach children around the world. I would love to see children identify with Shnnoogle as a positive...you know, there's so much negative going on in the world today. We have to get back in touch with the positive that's inside of all of us and empower a positive movement in society and in children because they are part of our future.

Manning: Well, Connie you've had a varied career as an artist that continues to flourish. It's quite exciting. I know you're a young mother of two boys, and certainly your focus is compassionately reaching out to children and leaving them with a message of hope. In your view, what are the challenges facing children in today's fast-paced society?

Douglas: I think there's a lot of lacking of human contact, even with children and their parents. Everybody is just so pushed and rushed to work. There is no stopping and slowing down to really feel what the important things are rushing through life. What inspired me about my friend's son is that the family was very present in the moment in hearing and listening to one another an d not just burying themselves in Ipods and music and faces glued to computers. It's like we have no human contact with touching and feeling and being conscious. We need to love and we need to be loved and we need to do good things with and for one another and not losing touch with each other.

Manning: With the publishing world being distressed, you've really selected an interesting new platform with Phoenix Children's Hospital to put down roots. That was not your original plan. But how is that coming along?

Douglas: That's a new experience for me. I found myself getting sad and somewhat depressed over the idea that nothing was happening with the publishing houses and that I was counting on somebody else to help get Shnnoogle out there to make a difference. And I just thought, 'Well, all I can do is what I can do as an individual person'. I started with it in the hospital and I can go to the hospital and I can read the story to the children in the hospital there to some of the children who get stuck there on the wards who don't get out and so forth. I can share with them the thought or the idea of Shnnoogle and share Shnnoogle cards with them and people get excited about that! 'Ooh, what is that Shnnoogle power? and Ooh, what's my Shnnoogle power and Oh, to be loving or giving or forgiving and it was fun to see that they did that.

Manning: Since this is a BLOG site and not television, Connie, please explain the Shnnoogle Power Cards and what this concept is that you've introduced to the kids.

Douglas: The Shnnoogle power cards is almost like a Fortune Cookie. Some people will think of this as Angel Cards that some of the shops sell. On the back of these cards are positive attributes of a human being. Love and Kindness, Bravery, Joyfulness, Inspiration, Inspiring, Kind, Fun--it's the different positive things we're all capable of. I've arranged all of the words in English and in Spanish on the backs. I've got an array of different positive attributes. So, it could be being Compassionate...

Manning: ...And if for example, I was a child who picked up a card that said 'Brave', what would I have to do? Would I be given an assignment or how does this work?

Douglas: Unfortunately at the hospital, if I go back the following day, I might not see the same children. What I would like to see done is at the school room at the hospital is for children to pick up a card and then take it for twenty-four hours to be Compassionate, or to be Thankful, or to be Extra Loving or to be Kind and then come back the next day and talk about the previous twenty-four hours of extending yourself and how did this affect your life?

Manning: What age range are we talking about with the children and the Shnnoogle Power Cards?

Douglas: They could be anywhere from 3 or 4 to 11. It's something I've just started at the hospital, so this is a learning curve for me too. When they pick a card, I'll ask them: 'What did you get? Do you know what that means? Go and do that. See if you can do that for a day and see how it affects your day'.

Manning: So here I am interviewing you right after you've had your first dry run--so to speak. How was it?

Douglas: A little nerve wracking, actually! (laughter). It was positive. The kids got into the story. They wanted to know what happened to the Baby Bunny and they really liked the Shnnoogle cards. Scott is my assistant on this project and he had a Shnnoogle blanket made for me, so we put the Shnnoogle blanket down. It's a five foot by seven foot blanket he made for me. So, we put the Shnnoogle blanket down and we told the kids: 'Okay, come sit around the Shnnoogle blanket, the Magic Shnnoogle blanket' and they all got excited and sat around the edge. First, I ask the kids if they've ever seen a Shnnoogle or if they know what a Shnnoogle is?' One kid said 'Yes!' And I said, 'Well, you probably all have it, you just don't know it'. I talk to them a little bit about Krudgel, the opposite of a Shnnoogle. He's the fear and doubt side of us who makes us horrid or selfish or mean to one another.

Manning: This is so timely. I've been blogging to my readers about the fact that everything in the world is fast, it's frenetic, nobody has time for anyone or anything.

Douglas: Right. It's like an illness.

Manning: It is! That's exactly how I see it--an illness! You know, one of the pet peeves I wrote a newspaper Op/Ed article about concerns people who don't bother to return phone calls. I am by my own admission a sensitive person. I return calls. I do write follow up notes. I will send a card in long hand. But that's really becoming a lost art. How do you balance your work with the need to remain physically healthy as well? It seems to me a wonderful tonic to make you feel better and for being just genuinely positive. And children are perceptive about if you are genuine and who you are...

Douglas: ...Whether you are shallow...

Manning: ...How do you keep your batteries charged?

Douglas: It's interesting, because I find the more I do it, the more that I am positive and friendly with somebody in the grocery store or the person bagging my groceries. Earlier today, I was out buying sugared Ginger and I asked my woman checking my groceries, 'Have you ever tried this?' She said, 'No, but I've always wanted to.' So, I said 'Here. Have one!' Some people may think that I'm a little bit strange possibly, but I find that the more I reach out and the more that I do something kind, it feels good and it brings out the kindness in others and that's nice to see.

Manning: But if that isn't forthcoming, how do you handle it? I guess you just have to not own it?

Douglas: Yeah, I can't do something with the expectation that some body's going to do something back for me. It's kind of like the movie Pay It Forward. Maybe it doesn't come back to me personally from that person. But maybe I've fractured a shell, maybe a hair line fracture and it's got to start somewhere? The that fracture can grow a little bit bigger and maybe somewhere down the road they may do something kind for somebody else.

Manning: How do you handle set-backs? And I ask that because trying to get books published is lengthy and it's expensive, it's demanding it's draining. You wait and wait. There's a lot of rejection. How do you handle it?

Douglas: I just believe in what I'm doing so much. I just believe that it's needed out there. The world needs more positive reinforcement and I look at Shnnoogle and anybody who see's Shnnoogle just thinks, 'Oh, my God!' They fall in love with him and they want a stuffed Shnnoogle. It feels good and I see that and I think, 'People are all the same whether it's you in a broadcasting booth or playing guitar, or a child I'm reading a story to, or brokers or clients and so on and everybody gets happy over this. They're no different'. Publishers are no different. People working in publishing houses...we're all just human beings. We all have children. We all see the hard that are going on right now and the lack of compassion and how caught up the world is and people want to be back in touch with what matters because there's an emptiness. There's something missing. Our humanity and our society has been pushed aside, and driven over top of and it's who we are as people that makes us human. I've often thought, 'If Oprah (Winfrey) would just look at this!' Oprah is just another human being like you or me. She's just in a position where people will look at her and if she got behind something it would take off. It's her position where she's at. But she's no different than you or I.

Connie concludes her amazing visit with me tomorrow!

Please stop by.

Michael

THE INTERVIEW: CONNIE DOUGLAS & SHNNOOGLE! (PART 2 OF 4)

2009-07-16T17:22:00.000-07:00

Connie & Obvious Shnnoogle Fan!

Book 1 in the series: Feeling Your Shnnoogle!

Connie's Second Book...

Douglas: Angie is the character. I darkened her hair because I thought more people of different cultures would be able to relate to than the perfect little blond girl. I changed my canvases and the more I worked on my canvases, the better my health got. I mean daily, weekly, I was consistently getting better. The stronger I got the more direction I got. By the time they did the spinal tap on me, I was feeling pretty darned good and that was about a month or two into it (the diagnosis). The spinal tap set me back and really sort of set my symptoms off worse.

Manning: Very invasive...

Douglas: Yeah, it was very invasive. Anyway, Shnnoogle wasn't originally part of the package--the little character Shnnoogle. All I knew was that I was writing a story about people helping one another, thinking of how the Nurse, the Mother Bunny in the story is very much like parents who must come to the hospital just feeling devastated--'I can't help my child, I just can't fix this. I need help'. And then one by one, different people come in and play their part. Everybody shares their Shnnoogle or their light through love and helps out. Together they are able to accomplish something that one person cannot. When I finished the canvasses and the story I thought, 'What is this about? What can I name this? What can I call this?' And I thought, 'There isn't a single word that puts that into perspective'. I had just finished reading the Harry Potter series. She makes her own words. That moment, my dog jumped on the bed and I said "Mocha must want her morning Shnnoogles". There it was....

Manning: ...Ah, the breakthrough where it all begins to come together!...

Douglas:...because it was loving and hugging and attention, affection and self worth--that's really what it is!

Manning: Self esteem! Very powerful! And I think a very loving tale you just shared.

Douglas: That's where the word 'Shnnoogle' came from and I knew that 'Shnnoogle' was our light side--the positive part in all of us that we really need to share to be compassionate and have empathy. Then I thought, 'How can I illustrate the light?' I started seeing this little character. This is originally my first Shnnoogle drawing (shows me her artist rendering of a small white character). And then from there Shnnoogle gains size and so on...

Manning: Okay, so originally there was just the girl and her name is...

Douglas:...Angie.

Manning:...and she's the girl with the eyeglasses and the hair. How did she come about? Was the character of "Angie" inspired by somebody you saw or knew?

Douglas: Well, originally, as I said, she was a little blond girl and I had taken the basic idea of a little blond girl from a another story I had done with another friend of mine. Angie probably came about because of me! She has a scarf in her hair as I often wear, and I wear glasses to read and then I painted the brace on her leg--largely the one I had when I was affected by the MS, I had a lot of weakness in one leg and I couldn't walk a straight line without holding onto somebody to keep me guided. So, I think when people say, 'You know, Angie looks like you', she probably is!

Manning: Ha! (laughing) I never made that connection until this second! Just glancing down now at your book, I do see what you are saying. (mutual laughter) She's looks like a fun-loving character, and I can see now how the "Shnnoogle Squad" really came together. What was the single driving influence in your life as a kid and later as an adult?

Douglas: I would say that my father was a driving influence. He was a really good man. He was a really good person who used to philosophize to all of us kids. Sometimes, we would stay up late talking at night about the bigger picture--about caring for others, doing things, about how a truly selfless person is someone who would do good things for other people, because when you do good things for other people, you're also helping yourself. But I think I was a sensitive kid from the time I was little. I was the one who was always saving ants drowning in the bath tub (laughter). My cat would catch a lizard and bite off his tail and I would be the one to get a band aid and tape it back on.

Manning: Were you drawing as a kid, always?

Douglas: Yes. I loved to draw from the time I was young and I used to create little critters like this butterfly and spiders with top hats and shoes. I loved to draw animals and I would also draw children on swings, children running around trees. And I love to draw horses and animals. By the time I reached high school, the Art teacher saw that I had talent and they shipped me off to a specific school--a composite high school (similar to American trade or vocational schools) for half-days in grades 11 and 12. That's really where it began for me.

Manning: I know all too well as a media person just how difficult both the media and publishing worlds can be to a deserving artist who has a message to share. Tell us about the path you've chosen to get your message out to the world and what that message is.

Douglas: Well, I would have liked to get Shnnoogle published, and I did get an agent who got it off to places like Simon & Schuster and Random House and they did take an interest in it immediately; they loved the illustrations and they loved the concept. But they asked for changes over a period of eighteen months to two years and I made those changes for them. Back and forth and back and forth. Then the last word that my agent heard from both publishers, due to the state of the economy there were many layoffs sweeping through the publishing houses. Not knowing the future of books, they were holding off indefinitely and not committing to new projects. In fact, they were cutting back production of children's books by seventy percent. There was Shnnoogle just sitting on a shelf and unable to reach out. It's about empowering children to realize the magic they have in their own sellves and making one by one--we can all make the world a better place.

Connie and I continue our visit tomorrow!

THE INTERVIEW: CONNIE DOUGLAS & SHNNOOGLE! (PART 1 OF 4)

2009-07-15T17:20:00.000-07:00

My Special Guest: Connie Douglas

Meet Shnnoogle!

and Krudgel...
-

Connie Douglas is a Scottsdale-based artist who happens to be a dear friend of mine. Her ever-present smile is a clue to her sweet soul and lovely personality. No wonder children in Phoenix Children's Hospital gravitate to her. She is a breath of fresh air with her philosophy that we must all slow down and acknowledge the positive people in our life who are all around us. Connie's passion for life is evident in a series of books she has written and illustrated with the character "Shnnoogle". This leads us to ask "What is Shnnoogle?" "In as few words as possible", says Connie, "Giving, caring, sharing, patience, perseverance, etc. “Traits”, ALL, within our power. We each are given two choices in life. We can choose to express that of 'our Shnnoogle, Love and Kindness' or it’s antithesis, 'Krudgel, our Fear and Doubt.” Through reading the series Shnnoogle Tales, children can discover the joys and hardships, based purely on whichever trait they choose to feed most. A child learns that THEIR OWN power, be it positive or negative, is capable of growing ever stronger when shared. Essential to the character of Shnnoogle is "making the world a better place, one act of kindness at a time".

Connie was born in San Pedro, California where remained until the age of 14. She discovered her love and passion for illustrating early on as a child and delighted in what she calls "unique and whimsical creations" borne of a sensitivity for children and a healthy does of positive humor. Connie's Canadian-born father wanted to relocate their family back to a quieter environment where there was less crime and fewer negative influences in the public schools. Connie lived in Alberta, Canada for the next 20 years studying Art in high school and eventually enrolling in Grant MacEwan College where she earned a degree in Environmental and Graphic Design. Her next step was to design her own line of greeting cards called "Serendipity's by Connie", along with the popular and enduring comic strip, "Zooter" which appeared in newspapers and magazines in Alberta. Wishing to expand her repertoire as a fine art painter Connie began creating compelling Native American spiritual works that were represented by Grassland Galleries and Clear Water Publishing. Her extensive wall murals and Fresco paintings for a number of notable clients in the United States eventually led her to Phoenix, Arizona where she was inspired to create the Shnnoogle book series after witnessing a friend's child fighting a life-threatening illness. A mother of two sons, this event moved Connie after seeing the love and kindness shared between her friend's son, his family and the kindness of friends. We pick up our visit with a casual question.

Manning: Connie, you have a fascinating journey to share that ultimately leads to working directly with children who are patients at Phoenix Children's Hospital. Tell us how this came about?

Douglas: I went through a divorce and throughout that period of time, I couldn't paint with all of that going on. So, that's when I went back to school. My father passed away during this period where I was going to school and my mother started wintering down here (in Phoenix, Arizona) and my sister was down here going to school. I thought, 'It's so cold in Canada. I don't want to live my life in this kind of cold', so I moved to Arizona and worked a series of small jobs. My younger son wanted to come live with me and by this time I was divorced. One of my clients had a son that inspired me to create Shnnoogle. He was in remission from a cancerous brain tumor and when I worked in their home-- he was an only child, Steven was 11 years-old at the time. This kid was so full of life and was so positive and living each moment, wanting to play ball, singing the National Anthem and his parents were so cognizant of not taking any moment for granted. There was a lot of listening and hearing one another and just living every moment with their son. I was just so impressed that when I left their home, I thought 'Wow! These people really got what matters'. They didn't have a choice to think about a future. They never knew how the future was going to turn out. I thought of all of the other people an how awful it would be because I have two sons myself--to go through that experience. I wanted to do something for the hospital that helped Steven and his family and that was Phoenix Children's Hospital.

Manning: That was really the foundation you chose to build out your dream of "making the world a better place, one act of kindness at a time" --as your materials state?

Douglas: Yes. I approached them about doing something to cheer up their space with some artwork that would touch others. I didn't know what I was going to do. When I showed them my portfolio, they were Gun-ho on having me do something. We agreed on the hospital Radiology Waiting Room because that was the a very depressing and difficult place for kids to be--not knowing what the outcome was. That was in January of 2005. The Arizona Republic came out with an article.

Manning: July 26, 2006.

Douglas: Yes, it was 2005 when I approached the hospital. I didn't know what I was going to do. I was going on a trip to Europe and so I told the hospital that when I returned, work would always be slow for me in the summer and that I would like to paint some murals for them. My first night in Switzerland, a girlfriend had suggested that I take along a pen and a pad of paper. She said, "I have a feeling some things are going to come to you". I said, I said, 'No. I don't want to think about work, I don't want to write anything'. And that night, I woke up seeing these pictures (shows me her book), seeing this Bunny on the back of this Tortoise and you know, getting the whole story and I'm thinking, 'This is it! This is it, isn't it? This is what I'm supposed to do for the (Phoenix Children's) Hospital'. And I started sketching.

Manning: And that was the beginning for you. You had the Phoenix Children's Hospital on your mind while in Switzerland?

Douglas: (laughing) I did! I felt like, 'Oh, I have to go to sleep, but no. I've got to do this'. And so, I started sketching right away. Then when I returned home, I started working on drawings. It was interesting because I started doing all water colored paintings to show the hospital what I would be doing. Instead of doing just sketches, I found myself doing these detailed sketches and I was working for hours. My husband asked me 'Why are you doing this?' I said 'I don't know, it's just something that I feel that I need to do'. I came up with ten paintings. I was actually going to paint these murals on the walls of the hospital . That was the idea--mural work. Ken Lewis was the guy I was working with at the hospital at the time and he looked at my work and said, 'Oh, my God. You can't do these on the walls because they're always remodeling and tearing things apart. They're just going to get rolled over, or somethings going to happen to them. We need to put these on canvas'.

Manning: Oh! That sounds expensive.

Douglas: Well, you know that's true. It is! I said, 'I can't afford to put them on canvas', you know? Because to take them and then to print onto canvas and then I would over-paint them would cost around fifteen-hundred-dollars to do. I found a printer in Pennsylvania and the hospital said, 'No. We'll cover this cost for you'.

Manning: That's when it's nice to catch a break.

Douglas: Yeah! I had it printed on a canvas, but them I wanted to over-paint the prints because I wanted them to feel like originals. So, I had them all lined up in my kitchen and dining room to paint and I got so inundated with mural work, that I would just go home and found myself working night and day--long days and climbing ladders. And as I was doing this--this would be August of 2005, I just kept thinking 'I don't want to be here. I don't want to be doing this'. I just wanted to do the stuff for the hospital and I felt like I was never going to be able to do this because I'm so busy with work.

Manning: You were so in-demand with the mural painting.

Douglas: Yes. It was demanding. We had a guy working for us and I was bringing in all this work to keep him employed so he could take care of his family of five kids. I had torn feelings that I had to bring in all this work and take care of his family, and wanting to work with the hospital. Then I started to lose my balance on the ladder, and almost fell off a scaffold, started to lose control of my right hand, I couldn't hold a straight line anymore with a paintbrush--I didn't know what was going on. I thought that maybe I've got a nerve pinched in my neck because I was doing a lot of ceiling work. I went to see a doctor and had X-Rays taken along with an MRI and meanwhile, I was getting progressively worse. I'd have to catch the wall walking down the hallway. So, I knew something was not right and I was getting real weak. The test results came back and I learned that I had MS (Multiple Sclerosis). That was, of course upsetting, and my doctor didn't know how bad it was or how bad it was going to get. He set me up for a spinal tap to confirm it and the results came back positive. Meanwhile, I couldn't work anymore. I just couldn't do my wall work, but fortunately there was enough work to carry my crews through at that time. And I just stayed at home and I painted. I just focused on these painting. As I was losing control of my right hand and trying to train my left hand to paint, I was losing my ability to speak. It was difficult for me; I couldn't enunciate words and say what my thoughts were. I had a lot going on in my head but I couldn't express it. At that point I thought, 'I might not get better'. Some people get MS and they're like, one year of two years, they're dead. So, I thought, the most important thing to me is that I've got to do something in this life that can touch others and that I needed to get this done and I wanted to get this story (Shnnoogle children's story) out there to make a difference. I thought my life would feel almost wasted if I couldn't do that. Then I started working on the canvases, and originally as the Shnnoogle story came to me, the little girl (in the story) was a little blond girl. She was fair-skinned and she didn't wear glasses, and she didn't have a brace on her leg. I started to understand what these kids must feel like at the hospital, sort of the fear of not knowing what the future is and how long their time might be.

Manning: You could definitely empathize with them.

Douglas: Yes! I felt like, 'I'm talking to kids who weren't perfect', and nobody's perfect! We all have things that we're stumbling over in life. So, I painted a little brace on her leg, and I put glasses on her.

Manning: This is the character in the Shnnoogle book?

Douglas: This is the character named Angie.

Connie and I resume our visit tomorrow!

THE INTERVIEW: SCREENWRITER JEB ROSEBROOK!

2009-03-28T18:01:00.000-07:00

A great film is written by a great screenwriter: Jeb Rosebrook...

...and the film you have just finished viewing on The Festival.

Steve at the Rodeo Grounds in Prescott, Arizona

Jeb Rosebrook is an Alumnus and Trustee of The Orme School (a central Arizona boys college prep school for grades K-12 located on 26,000 acres of a working ranch) in addition to being a Screenwriter and Producer. I knew of Jeb's name and fine reputation for many years, but never once dreamed that I would have the honor of meeting him. On March 7, 2009 Barbara McQueen appeared in Chandler, Arizona at The Chandler Center for the Performing Arts as part of her wonderful exhibition of photographs she had taken during her final years with her husband and screen legend Steve McQueen. During a "Question and Answer" session, Jeb Rosebrook, the Screenwriter for the 1972 McQueen film "Junior Bonner" also appeared with Barbara as they fielded questions from a jam-packed audience. This was Barbara's last appearance after a two-year tour of her book "Steve McQueen: The Last Mile", co-authored by Marshall Terrill. I opened our visit by mentioning Jeb's 2007 commencement address to Members of Cum Laude, students, faculty, parents and friends of The Orme School. Rosebrook attended the school at the age of 9 after his family relocated to Phoenix from Connecticut.

Manning: I wanted to ask about your travels across America and how your quiet observations of people and their circumstances would later influence your writing. Your key mentors were the Orme Family.

Rosebrook: Yeah, I was very lucky. My father was in advertising in New York. He was Vice President of Young & Rubicom. My mother had been on Broadway briefly in 1924, and the later she was with International News Service which was acquired by United Press. Basically, the people at the Orme School who ran the ranch--the man whose Chapel I spoke in--Mort Orme was my advisor. I always liked to write, because I was an asthmatic and stayed at home a lot and liked to write my own comic strips I had drawn and I loved to read. I guess it was really when my parents gave me a station wagon years later --I mean, how many kids have parents loan them their car to take off and drive all across the country by themselves when they've never been more than 85 miles miles away from home!

Manning: That had to be a wonderful experience.

Rosebrook: Willa Cather once said that everything you experience between age 8 and 15 is what forms the writer and I think that's true.

Manning: That's interesting. My first essay was a piece I had written in the 4th grade about my brother called "Hot Summer In Vietnam". And I still have that framed on my dining room wall at home.

Rosebrook: Yeah, and that's when I started writing at 9 years-old. Did your brother come home okay?

Manning: He did, yes. Thank you. Your name is prominently displayed on the mural inside The Palace Bar (the Prescott, Arizona bar where key scenes of "Junior Bonner" were filmed). A group of us visited last weekend with Marshall Terrill.

Rosebrook: That mural was done originally, sometime in the 70's or early 80's when The Palace was still in the throes of really not doing very well. The bar next door, Matt's is still a pretty strong cowboy bar and The Palace had gone through a number of owners. It was a punk bar at one time. The mural did not have my name on it. Peckinpah's was and Steve McQueen's was. When Dave, the owner, bought The Palace--he was out of Newport Beach, California. The mural was behind an area where they would shoot baskets near a shuffleboard and it was really covered with layers of smoke. So, when Dave and his partners bought it, they cleaned up the mural and added my name. You know, it gives you an idea of the stature of the writer (mutual laughter).

Manning: You know, I was going over your credits as a screenwriter for film and television and I kept trying to find a thread that would lead me to your original four-page treatment called "Bonner" that would eventually become the McQueen movie. What inspired you to write "Bonner"? Did you have someone on mind or was it someone that you met?

Rosebrook: Not really. As far as rodeos are concerned, when I was in Orme we had roundups in the Fall. But in some ways, I was a real little cowboy. In high school, I went to at least one junior rodeo. I've been to rodeos before in Madison Square Garden in New York with my mother. But the couple of summers that I worked at Orme as a ranch hand, I went to the Prescott Rodeo. In 1970, I went up there and I had not been to a rodeo since 1955. We were pretty busted financially. I was still trying to sell something. I sold an option of a script to James Coburn--my first script. That kind of gave me a leg-up on at least getting in the door with an agent. What really struck me was driving outside of Prescott that day and seeing the homes being built in Prescott Valley. There were then about twelve-hundred people living in Prescott Downs and homes were being built all over the place with banners and signs. That really somehow subconsciously--I connected the rodeo with that. It just somehow came about that somebody who was from there, who was coming back and who had a brother in real estate who was a developer making his first million, and the other brother was in the rodeo--that's kind of the way it all came about. I have a very good friend who is a poet in Colorado who told me one day that the majority of my writing really reflects the fact that I left home when I was 9. I was never back home more than three months a year. Many of the things that I've written really have to do with the loss of land, of the way things were--even if you take "I Will Cry No More Forever". It's the story of Chief Joseph, the chief of the Nez Perce Indians. They were not the Christian branch of the Nez Perce that had been baptized. He wanted to be free. It was a year after the Battle of Little Big Horn. The Army gave General Howard--who I think was from Cincinnati-- Howard was a one-armed General and he wanted Joseph to stay on the reservation. Joseph didn't want to do it. So, he and the Nez Perce band took off. It was a year after Custer, and America became alarmed that the band of Nez Perce was loose. They still teach his battle tactics at West Point. He ended up going through Yellow Stone. They were trying to meet with Sitting Bull who had gone to Canada after Little Big Horn. They got within 40 miles of Canada. They had more women and children than anything. They decided to stop and rest before entering Canada and that's where General Miles and the Army caught up with them. That was, in a sense, the same kind of story.

Manning: Sure.

Rosebrook: "The Waltons" was Earl Hammer--whom I've known since I was 21 years-old--he created "The Waltons". So, I had a chance to write about Virginia on that (television) series. I was able to incorporate some of my own experiences into many of the things I was lucky enough to be able to write. One of "The Gambler" episodes I did with Kenny Rogers--I rewrote a guy in 1987 who had written a script that was unshootable. It was a forced march. I was writing while they were filming. But it was about Sitting Bull and how The Gambler had to go see Sitting Bull--it was about the death of Sitting Bull. So, I wrote at least three Native American pieces. I'm not sure I could do that today because of political correctness.

Manning: One question I feel everyone reading this will want to know is what working with Steve McQueen was like for you?

Rosebrook: Well, the most vivid memory I have is just being called into his trailer that last couple weeks of filming before we did that big dance and fight scene in The Palace Bar. Actually, it was the scene where he was dancing with Barbara Leigh. That's when he asked me, "By the way,why am I called Junior?" Now, this is August. The previous November, I had started writing the script about "Junior Bonner". Incidentally, it wasn't until I started writing the script that the father showed up, then the dog--I still have no idea how this got there! He had a way of wanting to do dialogue in his own way. So, here was the scene and I couldn't answer his question, and I thought I was going to catch hell for that. I mean. 'Who do you think you are? A big-time writer who wrote the script and you don't know who Junior is?' He just said, "Okay". Then we went out and filmed the scene and I believe the way it went was--I believe you know that Barbara and Steve were not exactly strangers. They knew each other well enough to have this dance and this kind of 'let it fly' --so to speak. In the process, she says "Why do they call you Junior?"

Manning: I remember that!

Rosebrook: And Steve said "I don't know".

Manning: In the phone booth.

Rosebrook: Yeah, in the phone booth, that's right! Now, that's a memory! (mutual laughter). There were others where we had been working for two weeks and he wanted to work on changing some of his dialogue with Ida Lupino. Although I was there, those are the things that Steve may have consulted with (director) Sam Peckinpah. He knew in his mind what he wanted to do and he wanted to try it out. I don't think Steve was a Method actor.

Manning: No, I don't either.

Rosebrook: But he certainly came from instincts. That day all afternoon--I think Bill Pierce (former Vice Chair of The Prescott Film Commission) took you by the house--and Ida Lupino was one of the very first women directors, and she was a real pro. She knew her lines. And she wasn't going to budge from the way she knew her lines. He'd fool around with his lines and kind of throw her off. They filmed all afternoon. In filming terminology, when you have a scene that works you "print it". If you have a scene that might work, you put a "hold" on it. The whole afternoon it was all "holds", there were no prints. When he left--you remember that kitchen scene with the apple pie?

Manning: Oh, yeah!

Rosebrook: She said "You better know your lines tomorrow or your going to eat a hell of a lot of apple pie". So, he came by the next day and (snaps his fingers) it went like that.

Manning: She didn't work for 6 years before "Junior Bonner"?

Rosebrook: Longer than that. She had done a Clifford Odetts movie based on his play "The Big Knife" in 1955 about Hollywood. And Marty Baum who ran ABC Pictures originally had Susan Hayward in mind. Susan Hayward came out and met with Peckinpah, (producer) Joe Wizan and me for lunch. I mean this story's been told many times. We were so impressed with being with Susan Hayward that we didn't talk about the movie! So, she didn't think we wanted her and she went home to Florida. Then Marty thought about Ida Lupino--and that I think turned out to be a great choice. Because Ida was a consumate actress. She and Robert Preston had worked in motion pictures early on. I wish we had a tape recorder there. Early on in filming, Bill Holden was living in Palm Springs. He drove up from Palm Springs to Prescott to see Sam because they had met on "The Wild Bunch". So, he had a dinner for Bill Holden and it was really something to sit there and listen to Holden, and Robert Preston and Ida talking about their days when they were under studio contract. But with McQueen, I think the toughest time---there was a lot of concern. Steve had been involved with firing Sam Peckinpah off of "The Cincinnati Kid" years before. Norman Jewison, who was a much more experienced director took over and did a great job. So there was a lot of 'What's going to happen between these two guys?' And actually they hit it off very well, because there was no press around. I think there was no press around because Steve had just split from Neile (Adams) and he wanted a summer to himself. When it came time to do the scene at the railroad depot, the rehearsal--here was Robert Preston who knew all of his lines--Sam had written some of the other lines in there about the whore house in Nevada. But most of the other lines were mine. I had a fraternity brother named Dan Cox. And I saw him last year for the first time in years. I said to him, "Dan, I made you famous". Dan would have a few drinks at a fraternity party and say "As long as sex lives. my name will never die" (mutual laughter). So, I used that in that scene. Steve says, "You remember Bob Cox?" Steve was having a very difficult time--and I think it was maybe his relationship that he never had with his father--that was a pretty personal scene in which Robert Preston wants to go to Australia and Curly won't send him, so he thinks he can hit Junior up for the money and Junior doesn't have any money. The rehearsal was very difficult. Steve could not--would not put his arms around that scene. I don't want to go into the whole thing but finally, he put on his shirt--because lots of times he never wore a shirt--that guy was really put together--considering how much he smoked and all that. Once they did the scene--one of the things that was added was the day before, Sam and I sat and talked about what the scene was about. One of the things that's key about that scene was that maybe there was something about me and my father in there. You know, I wasn't always with my father and Sam said. "You know when my father got upset with me"---Sam had grown up on a ranch--"he would cuff my hat off my head". Did you know about this?

Manning: Oh, yeah.

Rosebrook: That's how that happened. In the end, it is a powerful scene put together by Steve's feelings, Preston's work and Sam's cuffing the hat when the train comes through. It was really well done.

Manning: He makes you feel that emotion, doesn't he? When he turns and shuts his eyes as Preston walks across the track just as the train passes.

Rosebrook: It's the first time, I think--I can't be sure about this--that may have been as close as Steve McQueen ever came to crying in a movie. And then at the end of it he said, "We're going to do the wild cow milking together". And only once did he call him "Pop". Throughout the whole movie, he (Preston) was "Ace". He never could call him Dad. Now, whether that's the way he wanted to do because that's the way he felt, I don't know. And as I mentioned the other night--the last time we were filming Steve was the opening of the movie--the thunderstorm, the car. He ended up in Jerome. Jerome is a mining town on Mingus Mountain near Prescott. It's really an interesting old town. Steve never had any money. And he asked me to buy him a six-pack of beer (mutual laughter). The other memory was when he met my daughter, Catherine, who was 5 at the time. We were outside the motel where we were staying and Dorothy was with me and Steve was there. And Catherine, my daughter was so shy and she held her head down and Steve put his hand on her head. And to this day, she says she met Steve McQueen but she never saw him!

Manning: I can't think of a better supporting cast than Ida Lupino and Robert Preston...

Rosebrook: ...And Ben Johnson! There were two great things about Ben Johnson. The first, when we were doing rehearsals for a week, Steve told everybody "This guy sitting here right next to me is going to win an Academy Award this year. I saw the rough cut last week of 'The Last Picture Show' and he's going to win the award." Secondly, Steve nailed me again. Once in a while, I can come up with a good line. Like, at the end of the fight (scene) somebody said "What do we do now?" and I said "Let's play 'Star Spangled Banner'--let's play something patriotic". And I wandered over to the bar when Robert Preston says "Up to the mouth, over the gums, look out stomach here she comes. If this world's all about winners, what's for losers?" I had a line in there and Steve didn't like the line. So he said, "Give me a line". Finally, Ben was sitting next to Steve and he said, "Some body's gotta hold the horses don't they". Now, he had probably stolen that from John Ford, but it worked! That in essence, when it works is what moviemaking can be about. A lot of writers don't go on location because the drectors and the actors don't want them there. Because they can be a pain in the ass, they want lines changed. You really can't bring your ego with you, because it really is a collaborative effort. That's a good Steve memory--when he nailed me and when I bought his beer.

Manning: Was it Old Milwaukee?

Rosebrook: No, it was Miller. We had a conract with Miller, Coca Cola and Wild Turkey in that film. If someone was drinking a beer, it was Miller. If they were drinking Cola it was Coca-Cola and if there was someone drinking the hard stuff, it was Wild Turkey.

Manning: Barbara Leigh and I discussed the ending, and I told her about being 14 years-old and being in the movie theater with my next door neighbor who was my buddy as a kid, and we couldn't get over her beauty for weeks! We couldn't possibly understand how or why Steve's character dropped her off at that small airport, put her on a plane and said he had to get on down the road!

Rosebrook: There's another one in the next town.

Manning: Barbara Leigh? Not as far as we were concerned! (laughter).

Rosebrook: Or why he didn't take her to El Paso? No. Steve and Sam were hell bent on getting Ali MacGraw for "The Getaway". And (Peter) Bogdanovich had backed out of directing Steve and Ali in "The Great Gatsby". So, they kind of conspired because she kept turning down that script. It was written and re-written. That's what I undertand, I mean, I wasn't there.

Manning: Is this the film that most people mention most to you in your career?

Rosebrook: Oh, yeah. Because I haven't done many movies. Now, they bring up "The Black Hole" a lot. When it came out, I was in a bookstore in L.A. for a book signing---by somebody else---and there was a Science Fiction nut there. And those people can really be screwy. I said, "You know, I was involved in writing--because I was the fifth or sixth writer--one of the worst Science Fiction movies of all time". And he said "What's that?" I said, "The Black Hole". Well, "The Black Hole" now is pretty popular. I've heard now they're going to try and remake it. They should. When "Junior Bonner" was not a commercial success, I had a thing that I always regret. I was sent over to meet with Jon Voight's manager and I kinda wish that there was something that I could have come up with for Jon Voight. My career then went into televsion because "Junior Bonner" was a critical success, but not a financial success. And the next thing I knew, I had an opportunity to rewrite "Miracle on 34th Street"--which was nice because you're not typecast. I had grown up in New York, and I was able to take my knowledge of writing ads for a department store and kind of update what the original "Miracle" was.

Manning: Are you surprised that "Junior Bonner" has become so enormously popular in DVD sales over the past 9 years? It now enjoys a type of cult status.

Rosebrook: Really? I do know that it's been on DVD and video before that. It changes production companies on the DVD about every three or four years. Somebody has rights to it, then somebody else takes it over. I've never even seen the Commentary as a matter of fact. I have it at home but I've never watched it. It's amazing to me that I was never asked to do a commentary. Garner Simmonds wrote the first book on Peckinpah, and I know he's in there. I am surprised and I'm not surprised. One of the reasons, there's a guy named Mike Clark who writes movie reviews for USA Today , and after 9/11 he wrote a list of "10 Movies People Should See" to give them a feeling about how they should feel about America and "Junior Bonner" was one of them . Clark has been a big fan of "Junior Bonner" and I've written to thank him because every time it comes back on DVD, he writes a beautiful thing about it. Steve felt it should have been released as an art film--a big release but in small theaters and let its audience grow. In the years since, it has grown. I didn't want it advertised as a rodeo movie. There have been two other rodeo movies, "The Honkers" and "J.W. Coop" and rodeo movies, historically have never made any money". Somebody has told me that there's never been a submarine movie that's lost money. But on the other hand, there's never been a car racing movie or a rodeo movie that ever made money. I felt it was a form of family drama. It just so happened these people were in the rodeo. After all, one of them is in real estate. And it was about change--there's no doubt about that. Family dynamics. I originally saw Waren Oates and Strother Martin (laughter). I liked smaller movies. When they said "We're going to use Steve McQueen, I said "Oh, that'll be another Steve McQueen movie". It was about this time, maybe two weeks later, I had finished writing "Junior Bonner" but I was still rewriting scenes. So, I came home from lunch one day--my office wasn't too far from home, and (my wife) Dorothy said "Joe Wizan just called and you're to pick him up to go to Steve McQueen's house tonight". I didn't have time to reflect on this at the time. I picked up Joe and here I am at Steve McQueen's house.

Manning: This is in Brentwood or Palm Springs?

Rosebrook: Brentwood. That's when Neile was making dinner for the kids and that's when Steve was outside doing something. He comes in and sits down and immediately--doesn't waste any time and gets into the script. Finally, he looked at Joe and he looked at me and said, "Why doesn't he take notes?" And Joe covered really well and said , "Well, Jeb remembers everything. He'll go home tonight and write this down". But Joe was sweating a little.

Manning: You never stayed in touch with him after the film?

Rosebrook: He wasn't a guy to stay in touch with a writer. Not Steve. I mean, I was a tool. And I don't want to put myself down. But I was a vehicle to get into this movie and to get Peckinpah into it and to get the cast into it. The Barbara Leigh story was really a story about a girl who worked in a bank in Phoenix and her life was kind of dull and she had a Volkswagon, and she came to Prescott to raise a little hell and have some fun and maybe meet somebody. So, she meets "Junior Bonner". And most of the scenes in The Palace are really personal scenes between Steve and the girl. Sam decided they needed more action, so he said, "Let's have a fight". We also said, "Let's throw in that she's a rich girl"--that she's on the arm of a rich guy. I think that whole scene about, "Hey, you're Junior Bonner"-- taking pictures'--it wasn't--I didnt want that in there. He's with the dog by the horse trailer and the guys walk up with the camera.

Manning: Oh, yeah..."We go back six years ago" and "Well, I'll tell ya, six years is a long time".

Rosebrook: That was Sam...it works. But it wasn't real to me. One of the things I will take credit for is that some of the music in there, I had written into the script.

Manning: I've thoroughly enjoyed this Jeb.

Rosenbrook: Thank you, Michael.

My sincere thanks to Jeb Rosebrook for making this visit possible.

THE INTERVIEW: AUTHOR MARSHALL TERRILL (CONCLUSION)!

2009-03-26T22:13:00.000-07:00

Friend & Author Marshall Terrill

His new book will be released in November, 2009:

Steve McQueen: A Tribute to the King of Cool

Manning: One of the things our friend Mike Jugan--who was Steve's private pilot--was telling us when our group was in Prescott was that when he'd fly Steve out to El Paso for his cancer treatments, the two of them would be seated in the Lear Jet just talking. Mike was an avid motocross rider.

Terrill: Well, he saw "On Any Sunday" about fifty times.

Manning: That much? Well, Mike wanted to talk about bikes, whereas Steve wanted to talk about flying. So, I had the impression that even during the final days of his life, he was still very lucid and very forward thinking...

Terrill: Yeah, what Mike revealed was that he had no inclination to die, he was very confident. And that gave me great peace knowing that...

Manning: Yes.

Terrill: ...he was at peace, that he wasn't flying towards his final operation. Mike said that his attitude was "Well, we're going to do this operation and then I'll be back again". So, that was his attitude. And I think when Mike revealed that to Pat Johnson, that gave Pat a great amount of comfort as well.

Manning: Yeah. Yeah. And for the benefit of the readers, we should probably mention who Mike Dewey is.

Terrill: Well, he is the gentleman who sold Steve his hangar and a pilot friend. And Mike is a legend in his own right as a stunt pilot. He eventually became Steve's friend.

Manning: And he found peace in Santa Paula.

Terrill: In Santa Paula he had this whole life away from Hollywood. It's interesting. You get outside those city limits. I don't know how to say this. But Hollywood is a great place to visit, but it's all fantasy and bullshit. The lure for some reason is so strong but time and time again, people think it's Disneyland and it's not. Los Angeles is a town of have and have-nots. There's a certain desperation in the air when it comes to people trying to make it in the industry. People spend a lot of their valuable years trying to make it in the industry and all of a sudden they're 30, 40 and have nothing to show for it. Then when they go back to the real world and try to get a job, they have this big hole on their resume and have forgone years of regular employment, a 401K, a retirement fund, put off having a family or career. And if you don't watch yourself there, you can really get burned. It's an industry in which it uses up people; it spits them out and obviously Steve knew that. And the mentality is that you're only as good as your last movie. I think that Steve probably knew that more than anybody, which is why he really cared and lavished on his films and acting roles. Because he knew that it could all vanish within any minute. That helps you understand who Steve McQueen was and why he had that certain attitude about the industry. Back to Santa Paula, he could have the best of both worlds. He could go into work--which was an hour away--and then he could have his complete life outside of Hollywood in Santa Paula, which is a very homey kind of place, and he could have real friends. Again, it goes back to that respect that I had for him for wanting that. You know, Hollywood is...if you're not at the latest party, if you're not at the latest awards show. Steve was able to maintain that outsider status, and not really deal with any of that industry crap.

Manning: I've shared this with you before, and certainly on my BLOG, that the Steve that I came to admire most was not the Steve who had been written about incessantly about bedding his co-stars, his use of recreational drugs for a period of time and the troubled past that we all understand now. But the man that he became towards the end. He did find peace with God. This is difficult, but I'd like your thoughts on what might have been had Steve survived his surgery. I know that he died of a blood clot following that surgery to remove some of the tumors. In your mind, you've done so much research on him. What direction do you think Steve would have taken had he lived? He was only 50.

Terrill: You mean as far as his acting, as far as his whole life?

Manning: Everything!

Terrill: As far as the acting is concerned, he would have been in the enviable position where he didn't have to work. In Hollywood, that's everything because if you didn't have to work, well producers and studios are going to throw ridiculous amounts of money away, which is something that he figured out early in his career. That's always astounded me. This guy with a 9th grade education figured out Hollywood pretty fast. To me, he is the epitome of a guy with Ph.D on the streets is often smarter than a Ph.D from Harvard. McQueen ran circles around Hollywood executives, which is another reason why we like him, right? That kind of goes back to the fact that I have no doubt that he would be acting. It's kind of like--and I don't want to compare him to Marlon Brando, because I'm not a big fan of Marlon Brando. But Brando was also in that position where he didn't have to work. Movie studio's threw ridiculous money his way in order to get him to work. I think Steve would have been in that position. As far as his life is concerned, there's evidence that shows that he would have purchased a home in Ketchum (Idaho)--he wouldn't have necessarily moved there full-time. But Barbara said that one of his dreams was to purchase the old General Store that was featured in the movie "Bus Stop" (The North Folk Store) with Marilyn Monroe. He would have purchased it and run it as a General Store--Pat Johnson talked about that too--where you could go and the old timers would come in and pour themselves a cup of coffee and put there feet on the stove and just kick back. I could certainly see McQueen doing that. He would have definitely been a rancher. He would have kept a very low public profile and worked infrequently. But when a script interested him or when there was perhaps enough money attached to it, he would follow that path. McQueen would have continued enjoying his life, and doing what he wanted to do. That's what we all admire about him.

Manning: There were about 40 books out there if my memory is correct, by the time you first published your book...

Terrill: The first one? I don't think so. I think there might have been maybe 10 at the most.

Manning: Oh, 10. Well, I happened to mention your book last night to a 23 year-old woman and she knew it!

Terrill: Wow!

Manning: Knew that book! But focusing on the tribute book that's coming out. It'll be hard bound?

Terrill: Yeah, it'll be hard bound. I'm trying to talk the publisher into doing a special Limited Edition. Again, there will be a disc like the one with Barbara McQueen's book where there will be McQueen talking about the making of "An Enemy of the People" (1978) and he would also be discussing some of his other films. It would have a slip-case, hard back, signed and numbered. It will also include McQueen's family tree on both sides. I worked with Loren Thomson, a distant relative of Steve and Uncle Claude's on the tree, and it was like solving a huge jigsaw puzzle. The real mystery was McQueen's father...I now know who he is, when and where he was born, when and where he died and what he did for a living. He was always the missing link in the McQueen story and I'm very proud of that family tree. Both sides of his family hail from Scotland. The McQueen's I can trace back to the 1600s and the Thomsons from the 1700s.

Manning; When will it become available so all of my readers will know.

Terrill: Well, again, a November/December time frame is what I'm shooting for to capitalize on the holiday season...

Manning: Of this year...

Terrill: Yes, 2009. The last time we released just the limited edition in the first six months and then we came out with the hard back. So, I don't know if we're going to release both at the same time or not.

Manning: I see this book as being one of the most exciting events of the year--especially for McQueen fans like myself. How can people start to become aware of it? Where will they find out how to purchase the book? Where to order it? How to receive it?

Terrill: Well, they can go to the Dalton Watson website at http://www.daltonwatson.com/. And they'll also be able to purchase it on Amazon.com, but I don't believe the Limited Edition will be available on Amazon. It will feature photos from the Donna Reddon collection. She has over 1,000 photos in her collection. So, a lot of these photos have either never been seen, or they've been published once or twice back in the 60's and have never been seem again. Shot from the movie sets will be included with candid photos. For example, I'd interview somebody, and they'd say, "Well, yeah. I've got a snap shot of that goes with the story. I just interviewed car collector Bruce Meyer who talks about how McQueen bought his first Porsche back from him. He has a candid shot of McQueen having a beer with him in front of the black 1958 Porsche Speedster. He tells this wonderful story about how he bought the car in a 1966 auction and McQueen found out about it in 1975 and said "Nah, I've got to see it to believe it to be true". So, Bruce Meyer reunites McQueen with his car again. McQueen looked at it, then went right behind the back seat and pulled up the carpet--ripped it right up and he spotted where the roll bar used to be. And then he looked in the trunk and found an old Gardner-Reynolds recapped tire. And that proved it to McQueen who said, "You've got to sell me my car back!" And this went on for at least a month with McQueen hounding him for weeks at a time with phone calls. Finally, Bruce sold it back to him. The book is also going to show photos from the Barbara McQueen collection---you know, she took hundreds of photos. There will be photos from the same sessions, but just different shots. For "Steve McQueen: The Last Mile" we pretty much picked the best shots. The tribute book will have different poses, outtake photos, and the pictures will be arranged in chronological order with each passage.

Manning: I always ask my Guests to close with any final thoughts. Go ahead...

Terrill: Let's just say that it's my gift to McQueen fans. I owe a great deal to Steve McQueen because he was the subject of my first book. It became a best-seller and that really kick-started my career. And so this is my way of paying tribute to the man because in my Authors Note I say "His legacy is one that's worth preserving".

Manning: In my opening to the "Festival" here, I talk about the fact that so much more is known to us now that was kept quiet for so long. For example, his philanthropy. It's most appropriate now that people know about that.

Terrill: And McQueen provides to everyone an example of how to give, which is anonymously; that's the classy way. A lot was focused on McQueen as this bastard, this guy who was a womanizer. But in order to be objective, you have to know the other side. And that was that he was a great father...

Manning: Loved his kids...

Terrill: Loved his kids. He was a good friend, a trusted friend and he was very good to The Boys Republic. Somebody just told me a story just the other day. She was a bartender at The Old Place in Malibu (California) and it was owned by Tom Runyon, this guy who was a co-star in "The Getaway"--and it's a funky old place in Agoura Hills off of Mulholland (Drive) where you go in and the only thing you can order is steak or clams. And they only served beer and wine. It's kind of a biker-actor-local character joint. And she was the bartender there and she told me that Steve--at that period of his life when he lived in Malibu--he just wanted to be Steve; he didn't want to be Steve McQueen. And often times he would come behind the bar and serve drinks. He had the beard and the long hair, so a lot of the time people wouldn't recognize him. He was just enjoying himself! He poured patrons drinks and he could just be a normal guy. She lived almost next door to The Old Place. She said every Christmas, she'd hear a little tap on the door in the morning and one day she opened it one morning and he said, "Oh, I wasn't supposed to wake you". She said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "Oh I'm just adding a little Holiday Cheer to your life!" This Christmas wreath that he was putting on the door that he purchased was from The Boys Republic; that's how they raised their money. They made these beautiful Christmas wreaths and Steve bought hundreds of these Christmas wreaths and he would go tack then up on people's doors just to show that he loved them and cared about them. At the same time, he was financially supporting the Boys Republic.

Manning: There's a whole other side of McQueen that's coming out of this book and I appreciate your time, Marshall and I hope every body reading this both near and far will have a chance to pick up a copy of the book later this year. And I think it's safe to say this is going to be a real keep-sake that one could have and pass along to their children.

Terrill: It's entirely different. I'm really proud of the concept because it just kind of really came quite by accident. In whatever book I do, I want to give people just a little more than what they're expecting. I didn't want to just give them new photos; I wanted to give them new stories to go along with the photos. Anybody can slap together photos and call it a book. That's not a book that you're going to go back to the shelf time and time again. This is one of those books where I want people to read, look and savor.

Manning: So, we'll go to daltonwatson.com and Amazon.com along with fine bookstores everywhere, right?

Terrill: Oh yeah! If there's any bookstores still left! (mutual laughter).

Manning: Marshall, always a pleasure. Thank you.

Terrill: Thank you!

My sincere thanks to Marshall Terrill for making this visit possible.